Computer Beatmaking?
Bambouche
1,484 Posts
I just stepped my game up. Since 1995 I've been using hardware: The Akai S3000XL sampler with a Yamaha QY700 sequencer. Pre '95 I used the Ensoniq ASR-X. Yesterday I bought a PowerMac G5. And I am need your advice before plunging into the computer beat game. A few very specific questions, and I'd like to hear any recommendations/woes, etc., from the people.MY SHITS[/b]PowerMac G5 M9747LL/ADual 2Ghz Processor160 GB Harddrive (1)190 GB Harddrive (2)120 GB External (3)20" Flatscreen monitorOTHER THINGS[/b]
Akai S3000XL sampler (32mb), w/ filter & FX banks
Yamaha QY700 Sequencer, 2 MIDI ports
Roland JV-2080 sound module, w/ 3 xtra sound banks
Allen & Heath MixWizard 40-channel mixer (analog), w/ 4 aux busses
Fuckloads of EFX, analog, delay, stompbox type...
I would like to use the G5 for multi-track recording (guitars, bass, mic'd radiators, etc.), mixes (hour long, 2 turntables + over-ditties type stuff), and beatmaking. In beats, I usually use about 10 - 20 tracks; drums, bass, samples, etc. Shitload of effects, mostly outboard analog delay and reverb. I wanna get the CastleD Light Bending sounds, yaom?QUESTIONS[/b]Integrating Old With New[/b]
Does anyone use their Akai (or other hardware sampler) with their computer? Mine is 9 years old, and only has SCSI and S/PDIF ports.
If I did use it, I'd need to get a SCSI port on the G5, right? Or could I use a MIDI/Audio interface to convert S/PDIF to optical?
If I want to use the S3000, I would need an Akai program (I had the disk, somewhere?) to be able to import samples from the Akai to the G5, edit them, build programs and banks on the computer and then export them back to the sampler, no?
I don't anticipate using a hardware sequencer with this new computer. Seems silly. Does anyone do this?
Software[/b]
Cubase: I'm leaning towards Cubase SX3. The Plugin Delay Compensation, from what I've read, seems to outdo everything else. Other points; the ability to freeze tracks AND VSTi's; the sequencing features; cross-platform compatibility. Anyone here use Cubase SX3? Thoughts?
Digital Performer: Thoughts? Pros, cons?
Logic: Thoughts? Pros, cons?
Others that I don't know about?
Audio/MIDI Interface[/b]
I'm leaning towards MOTU 828mkII or Traveler. I need that Firewire/PCI, no USB.
Does anyone use the ECHO FIRE series interface?
What else should I be looking at? How many Ins/Outs do you folls use, and what do you typically do?
PRO TOOLS[/b]While it's a nice program, and I could scoop an 002 for less than Cubase + a MIDI interface, I don't trust Pro Tools with heavy MIDI editing and extensive use of delay inducing plugins, and softsamplers. Is this disputable? I don't forsee not[/b] using MIDI, and while Pro Tools is the "industry standard", I don't really practice standardly, nor do I anticipate taking stuff to other studios, so the standard doesn't apply. If I'm going to another studio, it will be an entirely analog studio anyway, so Pro Tools would be of no use. Thoughts?MAKING MIXES[/b]
What programs do you use?
What problems have you had?
PLUG-INS[/b]I tend to dislike digital effects. I hear folks rave about plug-ins, and when I listen, I think they sound sub par.
What's up with the dope plug-ins?
What do you use?
Have you integrated outbaord effects in your mix down process? How? Problems? Do you have to bounce tracks?
Does anyone have the UAD-1 Plug-Ins? Thoughts? Reviews?
What am I missing? Plaese?And, thank you.~Bam
Akai S3000XL sampler (32mb), w/ filter & FX banks
Yamaha QY700 Sequencer, 2 MIDI ports
Roland JV-2080 sound module, w/ 3 xtra sound banks
Allen & Heath MixWizard 40-channel mixer (analog), w/ 4 aux busses
Fuckloads of EFX, analog, delay, stompbox type...
I would like to use the G5 for multi-track recording (guitars, bass, mic'd radiators, etc.), mixes (hour long, 2 turntables + over-ditties type stuff), and beatmaking. In beats, I usually use about 10 - 20 tracks; drums, bass, samples, etc. Shitload of effects, mostly outboard analog delay and reverb. I wanna get the CastleD Light Bending sounds, yaom?QUESTIONS[/b]Integrating Old With New[/b]
Does anyone use their Akai (or other hardware sampler) with their computer? Mine is 9 years old, and only has SCSI and S/PDIF ports.
If I did use it, I'd need to get a SCSI port on the G5, right? Or could I use a MIDI/Audio interface to convert S/PDIF to optical?
If I want to use the S3000, I would need an Akai program (I had the disk, somewhere?) to be able to import samples from the Akai to the G5, edit them, build programs and banks on the computer and then export them back to the sampler, no?
I don't anticipate using a hardware sequencer with this new computer. Seems silly. Does anyone do this?
Software[/b]
Cubase: I'm leaning towards Cubase SX3. The Plugin Delay Compensation, from what I've read, seems to outdo everything else. Other points; the ability to freeze tracks AND VSTi's; the sequencing features; cross-platform compatibility. Anyone here use Cubase SX3? Thoughts?
Digital Performer: Thoughts? Pros, cons?
Logic: Thoughts? Pros, cons?
Others that I don't know about?
Audio/MIDI Interface[/b]
I'm leaning towards MOTU 828mkII or Traveler. I need that Firewire/PCI, no USB.
Does anyone use the ECHO FIRE series interface?
What else should I be looking at? How many Ins/Outs do you folls use, and what do you typically do?
PRO TOOLS[/b]While it's a nice program, and I could scoop an 002 for less than Cubase + a MIDI interface, I don't trust Pro Tools with heavy MIDI editing and extensive use of delay inducing plugins, and softsamplers. Is this disputable? I don't forsee not[/b] using MIDI, and while Pro Tools is the "industry standard", I don't really practice standardly, nor do I anticipate taking stuff to other studios, so the standard doesn't apply. If I'm going to another studio, it will be an entirely analog studio anyway, so Pro Tools would be of no use. Thoughts?MAKING MIXES[/b]
What programs do you use?
What problems have you had?
PLUG-INS[/b]I tend to dislike digital effects. I hear folks rave about plug-ins, and when I listen, I think they sound sub par.
What's up with the dope plug-ins?
What do you use?
Have you integrated outbaord effects in your mix down process? How? Problems? Do you have to bounce tracks?
Does anyone have the UAD-1 Plug-Ins? Thoughts? Reviews?
What am I missing? Plaese?And, thank you.~Bam
Comments
Er**,
you are more than welcome to come by here and fuck around w/ protools to get a better feel for it. it's the way to go...really. besides being the industry standard, it's the most compatible with outboard gear. They had problems with MIDI at first, but all that should be straightened out. Yes, for making mixes too. you got a nice computer, dont waste it.
t
Yo...I use my AKAI and computer. I tend to sample things on to my computer and do whatever filtering or effects and I wanna use and then save them to my hard drive. If they're small enough samples I transfer them to the MPC with a floppy disk. If they're larger, I sample them right into the MPC. I sometimes re-sample with the MPC to get a grittier feel and then I sequence everything on the MPC. You can definetly use a computer to sequence but I like the feel of the MPC. When recording back to the computer, I don't have an epansion card on the MPC so I have to record each track one at a time and line them up. Its not too bad to be honest. You CANNOT however just hook up your MPC with your computer via SCSI cable. The MPC operates differently than PC's and Mac's, so you can't do this connection straight up.
As for you other stuff, I'm not as sure on so I'll leave it to some people that know it better.
Nice pick up on the G5. Very nice computer.
If people have a good program for making mix-tapes please tell.
I've been using the echo layla 8 in 8 out sound card and I have been more than happy with this chumpy. The cool thing is that it does have SPDIF's too. So right now I have a 2 channel preamp that goes in the sound card via SPDIF (sounds clear, loud and fresh) and the rest are balanced in's. Solid.
For a while I've been pretty skeptical on Plug in's and their integrity, but man, they just keep on getting better and better. From what I've seen, "Waves" puts out the best plug ins avail. Top notch shyte right there.
hope this helps. peas.
The MOTU 828MKII is sweet, I'd pick it over the traveller, it's only a little bit bigger, and is just as portable and durable. Also works as a standalone mixer, and had spdif inputs (althought it think its fiberoptic) As for ins and outs, technically you only need two, and can sync multiple tracks using MIDI, or a sound at the beginning of each track to line them up in the computer. And your Akai has no regular audio outs? That seems strange...
Cubase is a solid program, good MIDI, and the only one that freezes plug-ins on the market (great for taking your files to a Pro-Tools mastering house).
DP is equivalent to Cubase, but seems to be more geared to traditional musicians as it's easy to learn, and has the notation function, so you can print out your music and give it to a guitarist, horn player, etc. They did the sound for Lord of the Rings on this...
Logic - whew! this is the beast of the big 4 - SERIOUS midi capabilities, but also SERIOUS synth capabilities. The ability to shape sounds from scratch with this program is insane. It is the most expensive of the 4, has the highest learning curve, but also has the most plugins and software instruments included. Serious mixing, mastering and eq plug-ins as well. Tends to be favored by the electronica set.
Pro-tools is the industry standard - why? Cause it's geared toward your standard industry engineer type dude. They are also the only ones who make the ginormous multi-channel mixing boards, so it is the most user friendly to all the analog heads who made the switch to digital. MIDI capabilities have made a lot of improvments over the years, but nowhere near as good as the other 3. And, they have been releasing a lot of drivers and alternate versions lately that will let you run the program on NON DigiDesign hardware. Also, all of the other 3 programs are very Pro-Tools friendly what with Rewire protocol and multiple file format options.
On a side note, I love Garageband 2 - freaking great for most basic stuff, but I haven't messed with the MIDI capabilities, and it slows down after about 6-8 tracks. But a good little program nonetheless. Nice effects, and very simple to learn.
late...
sequencer wise, most of the top enders are pretty much the same from what i gather? i've poked around logic and watched my roomate do his thing in protools. for me the first one i got really comfortable with was SX. I switched over to Nuendo when 2.0 came out cause it was supposedly more stable.
Now I've got 3.0 and its really really dope. All these programs are pretty intuitive though, and the manuals can be pretty intense. I think the cubase manual is like 800 pages, much of which will rarely be applicable. Theres a really helpful book called Cubase SX Power. I have the PDF if you'd like to check it out. Theres also a really good DVD tutorial that just came out for SX3. Learning all the keyboard shortcuts makes navigating and getting shit done so much quicker/easier.
As for VSTs/plugins etc, from what I understand, the native plugs in Pro Tools and Logic sound better than the stock shit in nuendo/cubase. But there are plenty of nice vst plugins, namely the Waves, especially the reverbs and compression...but thats all depending what you want to do. Are you just going to be exporting from the sampler into the sequencer as audio tracks? Another option is to run everything thru a soft sampler--. For each track in cubase you have 8 slots of FX and another 8 for send fx. Besides the waves, Timeworks has a pretty good plugin pack. Antares filter sounds pretty nice but is quite straining on the cpu. For most of the filtering i just use the native filters on the Kontakt soft sampler. anyways... does anyone wanna break down why any of those top end sequencers is better than the other for even a more than casual/serious user? i can do pretty much anything i want to do in cubase/nuendo, is there really an edge to the others?
You can get some great results with this program if you're crafty enough. Contrary to popular opinion, it ain't just for house and, er, traaance.
Partner this up with Propellerheads Recycle (for sample cutting and exportation into Reason's Rex2 sample player), Bias Deck (for audio-in recording - Reason is not capable of recording audio from outside sources, although it is able to import aiffs), and T-Racks (for final mastering), and you've got a pretty kick-ass studio setup.
SG
Get rid of the qy700 I don't know how much they go for anymore but drop it.
The motu828mkII is a beast. I know a lot of people who have it and they love it. I wish I had the money for a new soundcard that is what I would get.
As far as your sampler is concerned you can get rid of it too. Unless you like the sound of it. Your Mac has enough power to do straight audio that you won't have to worry about needing the sampler. Like I said unless you like the sound of the akai get rid of it. If you do keep it (which I personally like hardware samplers) as someone already mentioned get recycle. You can dump right into your akai via scsi or midi. Dumping samples via midi is a painfully slow process so you might want to stick with scsi dumps.
As far as computer based sequencers are concerned I would go with Logic since you have a MAC. the only concern is you might want to put your thinking cap on when it comes to learning it. There is a learning curve for someone who has never used it before. The main thing is you can configure logic to your studio environment. As far as midi setup and all that. I love logic. I still have the last version for PC and love it. I might switch to Cubase SX3 someday but for now I am comfortable in logic and can get shit done quickly.
i record mix sets in bias peak. any audio editing / cleaning / sampling i do in peak as well.
i likes to keep it minimal.
protools / logic et al are obviously the dogs balls and what not but they also have zillions of features you will NEVER ever use and their interfaces are crazy bulky and unintuitive.. i like to get in and get shit done and ableton is BY FAR the best thing i've ever used for that.. it also does certain things that you CANNOT do in any other program on the market, which are pretty much essential to the types of recordings i do.
the fact that you can also use it to DJ / play live / improvise / jam with are like the icing on an already super sweet cake.
you got plenty of RAM?
you should be able to integrate your old with the new. syncing up the yamaha to the computer willbe no problem. go with what you know, then get rid of what you ultimately dont use. i use my mpc all the time. i also use protools all the time. but they are always synced and playing together.
if you are using zip disks, all you need a usb zip drive to tranfer files. as has been said, you cant hook up the sampler to the computer via scsi. s/pdif and scsi are two totally different things. i think you may be confused, or i am confused about what you are trying to say. either way, S[/b]ony/P[/b]hillipsD[/b]igitalF[/b]ormat is digital audio, so whatever sound card you get should have s/pdif input on it. i know the 828 has one(i got one if you want it, on the cheap;)) If I want to use the S3000, I would need an Akai program (I had the disk, somewhere?) to be able to import samples from the Akai to the G5, edit them, build programs and banks on the computer and then export them back to the sampler, no? yes I don't anticipate using a hardware sequencer with this new computer. Seems silly. Does anyone do this?
Software[/b]
Cubase: I'm leaning towards Cubase SX3. The Plugin Delay Compensation, from what I've read, seems to outdo everything else. Other points; the ability to freeze tracks AND VSTi's; the sequencing features; cross-platform compatibility. Anyone here use Cubase SX3? Thoughts? Digital Performer: Thoughts? Pros, cons? used this for 3 years. really decent program with great midi capabilities. Logic: Thoughts? Pros, cons? Others that I don't know about?
Audio/MIDI Interface[/b]
I'm leaning towards MOTU 828mkII or Traveler. I need that Firewire/PCI, no USB. Does anyone use the ECHO FIRE series interface? What else should I be looking at? How many Ins/Outs do you folls use, and what do you typically do?
digi002 has 8 analof ins/outs, s/pdif i/o, and adat optical 8 i/o plus MIDI in and 2 MIDI out. i have the analog audio hooked up the patch bay with my mpc, synths, and sampler normaled to the in the ins. the outs are normaled to effects boxes which i can bus out to off the channel in protools. DP wont let you do that.
PRO TOOLS[/b]
While it's a nice program, and I could scoop an 002 for less than Cubase + a MIDI interface, I don't trust Pro Tools with heavy MIDI editing and extensive use of delay inducing plugins, and softsamplers. Is this disputable? I don't forsee not[/b] using MIDI, and while Pro Tools is the "industry standard", I don't really practice standardly, nor do I anticipate taking stuff to other studios, so the standard doesn't apply. If I'm going to another studio, it will be an entirely analog studio anyway, so Pro Tools would be of no use. Thoughts?
this is what i use. to me, its just easy as hell to use. decent plugins out the box, tons of features. as has already been mentioned, the MIDI on it has gotten a lot better. maybe not THE BEST, but it holds me down.
MAKING MIXES[/b]
What programs do you use? What problems have you had?
again, protools for everything.
PLUG-INS[/b]
I tend to dislike digital effects. I hear folks rave about plug-ins, and when I listen, I think they sound sub par.
What's up with the dope plug-ins? What do you use? waves gold bundle is awesome Have you integrated outbaord effects in your mix down process? How? Problems? Do you have to bounce tracks? yes. not really. depends on which program. Does anyone have the UAD-1 Plug-Ins? Thoughts? Reviews? heard trhese are real dope. thinking about copping down the line.
What am I missing? Plaese?
i think you got pretty much most of it all covered. you may want to look into soft synths, they are pretty fun. theare are a lot of gear/software combinations out there. i have the same computer as you, use a digi002R wth protools, mpc, and a couple of other synths and guitars and shit, and that all i need.
there are pros and cons to every piece of gear out there. it all comes down to finding something you like and using it.
And, thank you.
~Bam
hope that helps some.
LOL yep
It was not an answer to your post.
When I started writing this post, I had to do something else and when I came back to finish it only one word came to my mind "LIVE".
It was my answer to that ?uestion : What am I missing? Plaese?
Me, I'm using an APPLE/MACINTOSH computer since 12 years now.
Befor that I worked on a PC, and before that I recorded loops with a tape recorder.
Now I'm using a G4/400 and a old Digidesign sound card called Audiomedia 3 and a midi keyboard.
That's all for the moment.
I use Peak (that's my ish!!!!), Cubase, Protools (not often, only for the job, I'm an engineer), Recycle (not often), Reason and Time Factory... Spark XL...
seems as if you have everything you need. In terms of the digital effects thing, I'd suggest taking a look at the Waves Diamond bundle, it's pretty decent.
signed
Peter Quistgard
A buddy of mine uses DP with a UAD-1 and loves it. They're great because they have their own processor which frees up your CPU to handle the audio...
The host is Pro Tools. I run hardware in PT midi tracks. Midi used to suck but it got better around version 6.4. I can send tracks to hardware and digital plug ins and back, with Reason running parts as well as individual Reason instruments run off PT midi. EDIT: With turntables blazing!!![/b] All integrated at the same time, all day. The secret is, I change it up often to keep my creativity fresh and challenging. I'm an artist like that. Money is just residual.
It's all good man. Prepare for some learning time. It takes a minute to get fluent. The cool thing about Reason[/b] is it actually mimics hardware. That made the crossover less bumpy.
Thats one of the realest ways to make samplebased music on a computer! Akos 7" was made in Cool Edit, and that shit sounds 100 times better than most pro-tools sessions. No need to change unless you want to start making synth based beats I'd say.
What are you trying to achieve?
right on, yeah mainly sample based stuff, but I also lay down some bass, trumpet and vocal tracks from time to time. I have a Boss drum machine that I do synth style beats on, then record it straight in to a session. (low budg all the way
Yeah Ako's stuff with cool edit is really dope, glad to hear it transferred well to vinyl.
Personally, I'm not scared of learning new programs. And I think I would logically use it to its fullest. The shit I do usually involves a lot of sounds. Hundreds of samples, extensive editing/chopping, etc. So I welcome a program that has all kinds of features that may seem useless at first.
Pro Tools v. Cubase[/b]
Can we talk a little more about this?
Pro Tools Digi 002 Rack: ~$1,200
Cubase SX3 (~$600) + MOTU 828mkII (~$750): $1,350
The price difference doesn't make a strong argument either way. The other concerns I voiced were addressed, in part, by a lot of the above posts. It seems Pro Tools MIDI capability has improved, which is a good sign. Does anyone have Digi 002 and experience problems with extensive use of plugins and softsamples?
I don't really have any attachment to the old gear, the Akai S3000XL and the Yamaha QY700, so I don't mind leaving them as antiques of a beatmaking past.
Sample Editing[/b]
What do you all use to normalize, edit, chop, de-click, EQ samples?
I have Bias Peak already, and it seems okay. Not too impressive. It seems like there were two voices (bubor0ck and Supergood) in favor of Recylce. Any other thoughts on Recylce? How does it compare to Peak? Other programs that you prefer?
Plug Ins[/b]
UAD-1 Ultra sounds good, and I would imagine not too many folks here own it. It's roughly $1,200 (ouch). Oldnewsoul as well as many others mentioned Waves. The Waves Diamond bundle runs about $2,800. Fuck. I'd like to buy one of these two packages. Seriously, I was about to drop $3,000 on the analog LA-2A, so if I can get it digitally for a third of the cost and put the rest towards other outboard gear, that would be nice.
Mixes[/b]
The only mentions have been Bias Deck, Pro Tools, and Garage Band. I've used Deck for several mixes and am slightly frustrated with a few of it's functions. I'm sure Pro Tools would be easier, so that may be be a selling point for me. What else are you folks using?
Again, thanks for all the thoughts. I appreciate it.
~Bam
seriously holmes, Sound Forge, and the waves bundle are probably the best software components out there for sample editing, sound engineering, EQ's, reverbs, delays, and yes, mastering.
you can read more about it here: WAVES PLATINUM though, you probably have been doing your research on this anyway.
it's pretty steep in price but we can talk about this by PM if you'd like.
Mixes[/b]
i've use sound forge for mixes and it works great.
cheers.
Believe me, I tried:
This user is not accepting private messages.
(page me)
IMO, ReCycle is great because it makes sample-cutting so easy if integrated with the stellar Reason program...so much so that it feels like cheating! Here's the run-down:
1- import AIFF/WAV into ReCycle
2- ReCycle cuts the AIFF/WAV according to where the beats/any loud sound occur in the sample
3- export the cut AIFF/WAV from ReCycle as a Rex2 file
4- import the Rex2 file into Reason's DrRex sample player
5- play each of the cuts of the Rex2 sample from different keys on your MIDI controller
SG
have fun!
peas and beans up in this beeich.
ps. did you say pm's cannot be sent to me?
yea, you aren't allowing PMs right now.
(you know, about that other thing)
anyway, hit me up with a reply here: [email]kg@funkdc.com[/email] so i can in turn write what I had written.
cheers.
pick of the night, Samuel Adams Summer Ale.
I'd like to disagree with kidgusto here, Wavelab is superiour to Soundforge in my book. You got "Audio Montage" which is a simple multitrack feature, but powerful for changing snares in breaks and such, and just combining breaks and shit in general. Correcting sloppy drummers... You get the idea. I think this is just as important as eq, noise reduction and such. And you can assign your own shortcuts I got one where I just press my own combination of keys and it performs a bunch of things to make a lovely fake 12bit sound! And chopping is fast as hell.. Just make a selection, and drag it out to the grey area, and u got a new file to work with. I still prefer Recycle for Chopping complete breaks tho. But when you just need a couple of sounds I do it directly in wavelab! The waveform replacement feature in wavelab is top notch for fixin pops and clicks in sounds. I use the waves plugins for the rest, crackle, hum and noise removal.
I just use Waves for reverb, and sometimes compression and limiting. But to be honest I dont like the rest of their plugins that much. Theres better alternatives imo.
Good sounding compressor:
Fucking incredible EQ (You seriously need this one):
For filtering basslines:
Just getting a little bit more crunch on your samples part 1:
Just getting a little bit more crunch on your samples part 2:
I had this hooked w my MPC, 950 and 2000 no issues. I recorded midi info back and forth via the MPC. I chopped samples and sent them back and forth to my PC via Recycle! HD recording into Logic.
However, if you've got a daul G5, seriously consider Logic as Apple bought out Emagic a while ago, and it's like having a built in one Hardware / software combo that works real well. It's tight.
Go and check it at an Apple store. I've seen recently they're selling Logic Express for AUS$500 w a keyboard. Bet it''s even cheaper in the good ole US of A! I beleive it supports up to 128 audio tracks etc....