At the very least, I gotta say that for whatever you think is good about how we do things in the West, our collective divorce rate says something about how relationships here are working.
well, it also says something about how we view divorce in this country, i.e. it's not as socially stigmatized (not to mention unlawful) as in other countries.
the only meaningful comparison is between countries where divorce enjoys the same level of social acceptance and where divorce is as readily available as an option to women.
otherwise you may be looking at countries where the low divorce rate is not a function of happy marriages necesarily, but of extreme societal stigmas against the practice, etc.
Agreed. The rising divorce rate in this country in recent decades is not symptomatic of a greater number of failed marriages; it is symptomatic of how much easier it is to get divorced.
There have always been an immense number of failed marriages. Personally, I think divorce remains unjustifiably difficult. I think it should be about as complicated and require the same investment as going through the drive-through at McDonalds, but we as a society do continue to treat marriage as an inherent good and have imposed certain legal measures to preserve it.
Dog, i'm not twisting your arm or forcing you to stay. If you have something to say get it off of your chest. It's that bitch down at the cafe, isn't it!!!!?!?!??!
dollar_binI heartily endorse this product and/or event 2,326 Posts
Agreed. The rising divorce rate in this country in recent decades[/b] is not symptomatic of a greater number of failed marriages; it is symptomatic of how much easier it is to get divorced.
Actually, the divorce rate has been falling since the 1981. Perhaps divorces are easier to get, but on the other hand cohabitation without marriage is much more socially acceptable than it was before so perhaps more people are just following Banbarra's advice and shacking up and when they break up it doesn't show up in the statistics.
How can you even have a discussion about this... I mean of course there are cases where arranged marriages work out and you have a happy couple who somehow learned to fall in love with each other after the fact. In general though, arranged marriage is just plain and simple a fucked up concept. In many cases it means that a young and most times unexperienced girl is married to an older or at least more experienced man, often of a higher social status. Many "cultures" who have arranged marriages have a whole variety of customs in social, economical and sexual exploitation and degradation of women. That's not a "different culture" that's absence of culture and I have zero tolerance for shit like that. Fucking PC bullshit tries to excuse this kind of crap get me agitated.
How should a divorce rate even be of any meaning in a place where women are denined their most basic rights?
Agreed. The rising divorce rate in this country in recent decades[/b] is not symptomatic of a greater number of failed marriages; it is symptomatic of how much easier it is to get divorced.
Actually, the divorce rate has been falling since the 1981. Perhaps divorces are easier to get, but on the other hand cohabitation without marriage is much more socially acceptable than it was before so perhaps more people are just following Banbarra's advice and shacking up and when they break up it doesn't show up in the statistics.
"Recent decades" meaning the past half century; everyone knows it peaked in the early eighties.
I think you're probably right that a lower divorce rate can be linked to increasing cohabitation and less of a cultural impulse to actually get married (though that, too, remains unfortunately strong IMO).
How should a divorce rate even be of any meaning in a place where women are denined their most basic rights?
Seriously. I'm surprised people even raised "low divorce rates" as some kind of "proof" that arranged marriages (or the cultures around them) are not such a bad look.
I think the better question is not whether you think they're a good or bad idea. The better question: would you want to be arranged?
I think the better question is not whether you think they're a good or bad idea. The better question: would you want to be arranged?
Anyone?
I don't even want to be married and I've been with the same person for almost 10 years!
I think people wanting to discuss different aspects of arranged marriages is being confused for people saying they agree with it across the board. My close knowledge of it is not of that of young girls and forced situations and attempts at family alliances, but a much more practical approach given what are acceptable male/female realtionships and distance. I don't agree with it and even though my mom and dad were 'arranged', neither of them would ever want it for me or my brother. And if I ever have children, I would never want it for them.
Why would it be so bad to relinquish our individuality in this arena of life and allow our families to have a stake in who we marry.
Because our families don't have to live, sleep, fuck, eat, breed, fight or work with that potential mate.
I dunno... I can just see how, in principal, it could be not that fucked up.
A lot of things get lost between principal and practice.
There are shades of grey in the "arranged marriage" concept. At least in India, which is the only country I am familiar with because of immediate family who have had arranged marriages. The basic issue is, did the marriage take place because one or both parties was "coerced" (which is a very real issue usually for the woman)? Or did they voluntarily agree to get married after the families introduced them to each other?
If you are talking about coercion, which often involves a young woman (pre adolescent too) marrying an older man, there are very real problems involving physical and psychological abuse of the woman by her parents, in-laws and husband before and after marriage. Economic and social factors play a huge role which explains why "coerced" marriages are still commonplace in India both in urban areas and in villages.
In the other extreme, a lot of reasonable and fairly "progressive" types in India still go through the arranged marriage route but I'd describe it more as an "arranged introduction" between the prospective husband/wife. This is really not a lot of different from what happens all over the world -- mom and pop worried about their kid getting older, asking around through families and friends about eligible single people they know, setting up meetings between the families etc. Ultimately it boils down to the two people and whether they click -- the families get out of the way at that point. Watch "Monsoon Wedding" by Mira Nair, it's a pretty realistic depiction of how a lot of people get married nowadays in India.
As for the connection between arranged marriages and divorce rates, I think the jury's out on this one. I know Indian couples who had arranged marriages that fell apart after more than 25 years of marriage. I also know of newly married indian couples who dated, lived together etc and got divorced in less than 2 years. So the correlation is pretty nonexistent in my mind.
How should a divorce rate even be of any meaning in a place where women are denined their most basic rights?
Seriously. I'm surprised people even raised "low divorce rates" as some kind of "proof" that arranged marriages (or the cultures around them) are not such a bad look.
I think the better question is not whether you think they're a good or bad idea. The better question: would you want to be arranged?
Anyone?
Well, I think most people on this board have been thoroughly socialized with a Western concept of individualism that makes it tough to wrap your head around the idea of an arranged marriage.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing--and it certainly describes me--but it is a social trait, rather than an inherently human one.
Put another way, it appears to be a far crueler fate to many of us than I imagine it appears to be to certain groups elsewhere.
How should a divorce rate even be of any meaning in a place where women are denined their most basic rights?
Seriously. I'm surprised people even raised "low divorce rates" as some kind of "proof" that arranged marriages (or the cultures around them) are not such a bad look.
I think the better question is not whether you think they're a good or bad idea. The better question: would you want to be arranged?
Anyone?
Well, I think most people on this board have been thoroughly socialized with a Western concept of individualism that makes it tough to wrap your head around the idea of an arranged marriage.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing--and it certainly describes me--but it is a social trait, rather than an inherently human one.
Put another way, it appears to be a far crueler fate to many of us than I imagine it appears to be to certain groups elsewhere.
I don't know most of yall, IMO there are some good points but some of yall just talking out of your ass and dont know shit about shit. Namely, Frank and Rockadelic. Yalls record status dont mean shit to me, go make an african mix and stop speaking on shit you dont know about
IMO It just boils down to the people. Up until my pops passed, my parents worked out cause they were pretty cool. But my family is kindof an anomaly in terms of the Indian family structure that I had seen growing up in the midwest. These days its different. But I'll say this - patriarchy/matriarchy has been and will be present at varying degrees in all cultures and it has a definite impact on a marriage, arranged or otherwise.
Being Indian I feel as though there is a similar fate for both these days. Call me old fashioned in certain ways, but I think there will be some kind of cultural impact based on the rapid economic development in India these past few years and the subsequent cycles that will occur, I'm not sure what effect it will have on divorce statistics however valid those are anyway. The 'rules' are changing. I cant really speak on other cultures where arranged marriage is prevalant. Who's to say what's good and what's bad, that's for the individual to decide and be accountable for. You wanna be stable, keep it fresh, but the outside factors are getting increasingly variable - but maybe thats just a cyclical generational way of looking at things. There are definitely some 'first time ever' things going on now and its difficult to generalize.
My main point is that you can't resort to statistics to answer your questions about any kind of marriage, its way deeper than that and until you at the very least consider that its gonna be a rough road however you go. Itll wont be easy even after you consider it. Just watch the sweeping generalizations, that's where you get fucked up and stung, I've been guilty of it and am susceptible to the consequences as well.
Well, I think most people on this board have been thoroughly socialized with a Western concept of individualism that makes it tough to wrap your head around the idea of an arranged marriage.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing--and it certainly describes me--but it is a social trait, rather than an inherently human one.
Put another way, it appears to be a far crueler fate to many of us than I imagine it appears to be to certain groups elsewhere.
I think this kinda sums up what i was trying to get at before. I'm just trying to acknowledge that while I still wouldn't want it myself (God knows just having my famiuly involved in planning aspects of the wedding is nightmarish enough for me right now) I can see it might be feasible in a culture where the family unit preceeds the right/want of the individual.
All that other bullshit like honour killings and the obvious social stigma (or criminalisation) around divorce is not, in and of itself, related to arranged marriage. I think the freedome to divorce in Western society has been one of the single most important steps in freeing women. Now I'm off to play my Laura Lee albums
I cant really speak on other cultures where arranged marriage is prevalant. Who's to say what's good and what's bad, that's for the individual to decide and be accountable for.
that's for the individual to decide and be accountable for.
Marrying someone is probably the most important choice of your life. If that's not your own free choice to make as an individual, I guess you're fucked.
India probably stands out as one of the non islamic countries with the least regard for women's rights.
Statistics say that 37% of women in India who have been married have experienced spousal violence.
Marriage in India is an economic transaction and families who can't afford the dowry needed to find a husband for their future daughters often have an abortion or kill female newborns. An estimated 5 Million female fetuses are killed every year. As a result, for 1.000 men, there are only 920 women.
What about the popular and increasing Indian folklore of "Bride Burning" where a husband who thinks that the dowry was insufficient, facially disfigures, mutilates or kills his wife with burning charcoil, oil or gasoline.
This my friend is not a matter of "different culture". This is the absence of anything I would call "culture".
The hospital where our kids were born will not disclose the sex of the baby before birth because so many Indian and Bangladeshi parents opt for late term abortions (legal or otherwise) if it's a girl. This is in central London.
I cant really speak on other cultures where arranged marriage is prevalant. Who's to say what's good and what's bad, that's for the individual to decide and be accountable for.
that's for the individual to decide and be accountable for.
Marrying someone is probably the most important choice of your life. If that's not your own free choice to make as an individual, I guess you're fucked.
India probably stands out as one of the non islamic countries with the least regard for women's rights.
Statistics say that 37% of women in India who have been married have experienced spousal violence.
Marriage in India is an economic transaction and families who can't afford the dowry needed to find a husband for their future daughters often have an abortion or kill female newborns. An estimated 5 Million female fetuses are killed every year. As a result, for 1.000 men, there are only 920 women.
What about the popular and increasing Indian folklore of "Bride Burning" where a husband who thinks that the dowry was insufficient, facially disfigures, mutilates or kills his wife with burning charcoil, oil or gasoline.
This my friend is not a matter of "different culture". This is the absence of anything I would call "culture".
I don't know anything about 'bride burning'
For the record, I am personally not about arranged marriages, but I've seen with my own eyes how many have worked out and am just giving my insight. It was more than just an economic transaction, they met each other beforehand, and it wasn't forced upon them. I'm all for individual rights and agree on the your stance on marriage. But don't run off these statistics at me without telling me where they come from. Have you even been to India? Absence of culture? It seems to me like you're just picking out some negative aspects and using it to cover a whole populus. Its 2007, man. Its just like anywhere else, where you got the psycho orthodox and the progressive minded.
Statistics say that 37% of women in India who have been married have experienced spousal violence.
Marriage in India is an economic transaction and families who can't afford the dowry needed to find a husband for their future daughters often have an abortion or kill female newborns. An estimated 5 Million female fetuses are killed every year. As a result, for 1.000 men, there are only 920 women.
What about the popular and increasing Indian folklore of "Bride Burning" where a husband who thinks that the dowry was insufficient, facially disfigures, mutilates or kills his wife with burning charcoil, oil or gasoline.
This my friend is not a matter of "different culture". This is the absence of anything I would call "culture".
Do you have sources for these stats?
Assuming these are valid, the numbers tell a pretty disturbing story. But the conclusions you draw and your attitude of cultural superiority are really unnecessary.
Marriage in India can be an "economic transaction" in some cases -- but not in all cases as you suggest. Bride burning is not folklore, but is a gruesome reality, and is hardly "popular and increasing" -- it's been around a long time yet I have not seen any evidence it is on the rise.
Your final statement is offensive -- you are saying an abhorrent practice such as bride burning equals a total lack of culture? Kind of an extreme position to take, isn't it?
I cant really speak on other cultures where arranged marriage is prevalant. Who's to say what's good and what's bad, that's for the individual to decide and be accountable for.
that's for the individual to decide and be accountable for.
Marrying someone is probably the most important choice of your life. If that's not your own free choice to make as an individual, I guess you're fucked.
India probably stands out as one of the non islamic countries with the least regard for women's rights.
Statistics say that 37% of women in India who have been married have experienced spousal violence.
Marriage in India is an economic transaction and families who can't afford the dowry needed to find a husband for their future daughters often have an abortion or kill female newborns. An estimated 5 Million female fetuses are killed every year. As a result, for 1.000 men, there are only 920 women.
What about the popular and increasing Indian folklore of "Bride Burning" where a husband who thinks that the dowry was insufficient, facially disfigures, mutilates or kills his wife with burning charcoil, oil or gasoline.
This my friend is not a matter of "different culture". This is the absence of anything I would call "culture".
I don't know anything about 'bride burning'
For the record, I am personally not about arranged marriages, but I've seen with my own eyes how many have worked out and am just giving my insight. It was more than just an economic transaction, they met each other beforehand, and it wasn't forced upon them. I'm all for individual rights and agree on the your stance on marriage. But don't run off these statistics at me without telling me where they come from. Have you even been to India? Absence of culture? It seems to me like you're just picking out some negative aspects and using it to cover a whole populus. Its 2007, man. Its just like anywhere else, where you got the psycho orthodox and the progressive minded.
india has metropolitan areas and these areas do have a modern take on arranged marriages. but for every forward thinking indian metro india, there are at at least 10 backwards villagers. india is still largely an agricultural nation. and the rural culture is pretty sheltered from the progressiveness of the city.
my mother was the daughter of a politician and my father was a farmer's son. when i go back, i see both sides. and both are amazing and pretty appalling.
but dude, you cant go off what you know and see as sole fact. the country is huge.
I cant really speak on other cultures where arranged marriage is prevalant. Who's to say what's good and what's bad, that's for the individual to decide and be accountable for.
that's for the individual to decide and be accountable for.
Marrying someone is probably the most important choice of your life. If that's not your own free choice to make as an individual, I guess you're fucked.
India probably stands out as one of the non islamic countries with the least regard for women's rights.
Statistics say that 37% of women in India who have been married have experienced spousal violence.
Marriage in India is an economic transaction and families who can't afford the dowry needed to find a husband for their future daughters often have an abortion or kill female newborns. An estimated 5 Million female fetuses are killed every year. As a result, for 1.000 men, there are only 920 women.
What about the popular and increasing Indian folklore of "Bride Burning" where a husband who thinks that the dowry was insufficient, facially disfigures, mutilates or kills his wife with burning charcoil, oil or gasoline.
This my friend is not a matter of "different culture". This is the absence of anything I would call "culture".
I don't know anything about 'bride burning'
For the record, I am personally not about arranged marriages, but I've seen with my own eyes how many have worked out and am just giving my insight. It was more than just an economic transaction, they met each other beforehand, and it wasn't forced upon them. I'm all for individual rights and agree on the your stance on marriage. But don't run off these statistics at me without telling me where they come from. Have you even been to India? Absence of culture? It seems to me like you're just picking out some negative aspects and using it to cover a whole populus. Its 2007, man. Its just like anywhere else, where you got the psycho orthodox and the progressive minded.
india has metropolitan areas and these areas do have a modern take on arranged marriages. but for every forward thinking indian metro india, there are at at least 10 backwards villagers. india is still largely an agricultural nation. and the rural culture is pretty sheltered from the progressiveness of the city.
my mother was the daughter of a politician and my father was a farmer's son. when i go back, i see both sides. and both are amazing and pretty appalling.
but dude, you cant go off what you know and see as sole fact. the country is huge.
Nah man, apologies didn't mean it that way, I was just sharing my perspective I might have worded it wrong. I got hot and took some of that shit personal.
many good points mentioned above. It's just important to understand that arranged marriage is not a forced marriage in the majority of the cases. I participated at a couple of weddings and talked to many Indians of my age and they thought that the Western system is hilarious. However, I've been to three different women refugee houses and I'll never forget what I've seen there.
There are many things wrong with the system, dowry related killings are still a regular occurence, child marriages are horrible and the male-female ratio is alarming in some areas, but that does not mean that the system is totally bad or a lack of culture exists.
Additionally, one should not forget that the Western system is also based on a lot of rules and the outcome - compared to arranged marriages - is often the same (meaning people of similar status, background, social class usually marry each other).
many good points mentioned above. It's just important to understand that arranged marriage is not a forced marriage in the majority of the cases. I participated at a couple of weddings and talked to many Indians of my age and they thought that the Western system is hilarious. However, I've been to three different women refugee houses and I'll never forget what I've seen there.
There are many things wrong with the system, dowry related killings are still a regular occurence, child marriages are horrible and the male-female ratio is alarming in some areas, but that does not mean that the system is totally bad or a lack of culture exists.
Additionally, one should not forget that the Western system is also based on a lot of rules and the outcome - compared to arranged marriages - is often the same (meaning people of similar status, background, social class usually marry each other).
Exactly
Plus
Its important to remember though its not common to have an Arranged Marriage in the U.S, We definitely have Re-Arranged ones. Some cases are worse than others and other cases it takes people three or four tries.
Arranged marriage isn't the defying factor of all the cruelty upon women throughout the world, thats for damn sure.
There are immeasurable amounts of instances across the globe that have nothing to do with marriage or love for that matter. A lot of things come into the factor such as population control in China, Africa, Not to mention prostitution, mail order brides, good ol' domestic violence, child sex slaves, the list goes on and on...its a fucked up world and contemporary "regular western" marriage is just as much a contributing factor to the fucked-up-ness as arranged marriages are.
East Vs. West : knowing they will have a significant other choosen for them, or knowing that its ok to marry over and over again until you get it right. Either way, socially acceptable or not, is one really better than the other? I mean, marry and divorce, have a bunch of kids with different dads, but go forbid you parents help you choose a life mate that will be with your forever because they made a vow, a real one....not the american kind.
It still all comes down to personal belief.
And I hardly think its fair to think that women are the only ones who "suffer" in an arranged marriage.
I've seen news reports and read in various papers about this. Dowry murders are on the rise and that's according to official numbers provided by the Indian Government.
As with the number of bride burnings being on the rise. I've read about this in a recent article in Spiegel magazine (roughly the German equivalent of Time magazine).
My point about girl baby killings and the targeted abortion of female fetuses resulting in a lack of brides and the number of 920 females on 1.000 males was also made on the official numbers provided by the Indian government. Look this shit up online.
It is very easy to find tons of information on things like these online. it seems like there are several groups in India who try to make these things public. There are also a lot of very strict laws against these horrible things, they just don't seem to have much of an impact.
The point I was trying to make is that it is wrong to excuse customs and traditions that hinder a free and self-determined life as a "cultural good". Arranged marriage in my opinion is a horrible thing because it lets others make a crucial and life-changing decision for you. My further point was that arranged marriage is usually a feature of certain traditions that also include other aspects of paternalism, sexism and exploitation of women.
Hey Frank best wishes on any travels you have, its not my job to convince you to go to India. Those are some disturbing statistics, but there is crazy shit that happens in the backwoods everywhere. It definitely needs remedy. I just hope its not some deeper seeded hater type activity.
I'll go ahead and also play the paranoid narcissist, if anyone wants to take the 'go make an african mix' comment out of context (actually like those mixes) don't do it. Y'all should try and scale back on ho cake activity if thats what youre about
Im just wary of minority on minority bullshit and cultural clash in general... these types of arguments tend to go nowhere when people have already made up their minds.
A thousand years behind ( u.s.)? Will this change everything???
I'd like to point out again that India is not the only country with arranged marriage, domestic violence & murder.
In fact, I wanted to see what the Domestic violence statistics were compared to the U.S. because as Frank had stated above, the rate in India is 37%
According to statistics, Its a whole 6 point difference. The U.S. chimes in just under a third (31%) of women who report domestic violence. Call me crazy, but That doesn't really seem like that big of a difference. And the reasoning in a lot of cases is the same. Money and Children, Fear and regret..... So again, what is the difference of injustices to women in India to Injustices to Women all over the world, the U.S included, one of the most culturally inept or confused, if not the most confused population in the world.
It doesn't seem fair to me to single out an entire country when we dont have much room to speak, especially considering our lack of understanding of their moral grounds for arranged marriage. If there is one thing americans dont have a whole lot of its morals.
OH! and R.I.P. Tammy Faye
is the news ticker broken or something??
First Women Prez of India is pretty serious though.
A thousand years behind ( u.s.)? Will this change everything???
First Women Prez of India is pretty serious though.
That's fine and I don't want to be a nitpicker, but the President is not that important in India, as it is a parliamentary and not a presidential democracy. Indira Gandhi has been prime minister for a long time (from 1966 onwards and again in the 80s) and she had power.
Even Sonia Gandhi (the former wife of prime minister Rajiv Gandhi, who was assassinated in the early 90s) was quite influential in the Congress party in recent years. Although these two achieved a lot of their power, only because they were members of the Nehru dynasty, these are (or were) the most prominent powerful women in India so far.
That's fine and I don't want to be a nitpicker, but the President is not that important period.
Thats cool, I didnt know that, thanks for the added info.
Really I just don't understand all the harping on India in this thread. I think there is terrible shit happening to people all over the world that has nothing to do with Arranged Marriage. Im not saying Bride Burning is not a problem, but it seems statistically we have a compariable amount of domestic violence here in the U.S. Just sayin'
Comments
Dog, i'm not twisting your arm or forcing you to stay. If you have something to say get it off of your chest. It's that bitch down at the cafe, isn't it!!!!?!?!??!
Actually, the divorce rate has been falling since the 1981. Perhaps divorces are easier to get, but on the other hand cohabitation without marriage is much more socially acceptable than it was before so perhaps more people are just following Banbarra's advice and shacking up and when they break up it doesn't show up in the statistics.
I mean of course there are cases where arranged marriages work out and you have a happy couple who somehow learned to fall in love with each other after the fact.
In general though, arranged marriage is just plain and simple a fucked up concept. In many cases it means that a young and most times unexperienced girl is married to an older or at least more experienced man, often of a higher social status. Many "cultures" who have arranged marriages have a whole variety of customs in social, economical and sexual exploitation and degradation of women. That's not a "different culture" that's absence of culture and I have zero tolerance for shit like that. Fucking PC bullshit tries to excuse this kind of crap get me agitated.
How should a divorce rate even be of any meaning in a place where women are denined their most basic rights?
"Recent decades" meaning the past half century; everyone knows it peaked in the early eighties.
I think you're probably right that a lower divorce rate can be linked to increasing cohabitation and less of a cultural impulse to actually get married (though that, too, remains unfortunately strong IMO).
Welcome to Soul Strut
Seriously. I'm surprised people even raised "low divorce rates" as some kind of "proof" that arranged marriages (or the cultures around them) are not such a bad look.
I think the better question is not whether you think they're a good or bad idea. The better question: would you want to be arranged?
Anyone?
Do I get to access to your vaults?
I don't even want to be married and I've been with the same person for almost 10 years!
I think people wanting to discuss different aspects of arranged marriages is being confused for people saying they agree with it across the board. My close knowledge of it is not of that of young girls and forced situations and attempts at family alliances, but a much more practical approach given what are acceptable male/female realtionships and distance.
I don't agree with it and even though my mom and dad were 'arranged', neither of them would ever want it for me or my brother. And if I ever have children, I would never want it for them.
Because our families don't have to live, sleep, fuck, eat, breed, fight or work with that potential mate.
A lot of things get lost between principal and practice.
Here's one that's getting a lot of attention in the news at the moment: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20070719/tuk-uk-britain-kurd-fa6b408.html
If you are talking about coercion, which often involves a young woman (pre adolescent too) marrying an older man, there are very real problems involving physical and psychological abuse of the woman by her parents, in-laws and husband before and after marriage. Economic and social factors play a huge role which explains why "coerced" marriages are still commonplace in India both in urban areas and in villages.
In the other extreme, a lot of reasonable and fairly "progressive" types in India still go through the arranged marriage route but I'd describe it more as an "arranged introduction" between the prospective husband/wife. This is really not a lot of different from what happens all over the world -- mom and pop worried about their kid getting older, asking around through families and friends about eligible single people they know, setting up meetings between the families etc. Ultimately it boils down to the two people and whether they click -- the families get out of the way at that point. Watch "Monsoon Wedding" by Mira Nair, it's a pretty realistic depiction of how a lot of people get married nowadays in India.
As for the connection between arranged marriages and divorce rates, I think the jury's out on this one. I know Indian couples who had arranged marriages that fell apart after more than 25 years of marriage. I also know of newly married indian couples who dated, lived together etc and got divorced in less than 2 years. So the correlation is pretty nonexistent in my mind.
Well, I think most people on this board have been thoroughly socialized with a Western concept of individualism that makes it tough to wrap your head around the idea of an arranged marriage.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing--and it certainly describes me--but it is a social trait, rather than an inherently human one.
Put another way, it appears to be a far crueler fate to many of us than I imagine it appears to be to certain groups elsewhere.
I don't know most of yall, IMO there are some good points but some of yall just talking out of your ass and dont know shit about shit. Namely, Frank and Rockadelic. Yalls record status dont mean shit to me, go make an african mix and stop speaking on shit you dont know about
IMO It just boils down to the people. Up until my pops passed, my parents worked out cause they were pretty cool. But my family is kindof an anomaly in terms of the Indian family structure that I had seen growing up in the midwest. These days its different. But I'll say this - patriarchy/matriarchy has been and will be present at varying degrees in all cultures and it has a definite impact on a marriage, arranged or otherwise.
Being Indian I feel as though there is a similar fate for both these days. Call me old fashioned in certain ways, but I think there will be some kind of cultural impact based on the rapid economic development in India these past few years and the subsequent cycles that will occur, I'm not sure what effect it will have on divorce statistics however valid those are anyway. The 'rules' are changing. I cant really speak on other cultures where arranged marriage is prevalant. Who's to say what's good and what's bad, that's for the individual to decide and be accountable for. You wanna be stable, keep it fresh, but the outside factors are getting increasingly variable - but maybe thats just a cyclical generational way of looking at things. There are definitely some 'first time ever' things going on now and its difficult to generalize.
My main point is that you can't resort to statistics to answer your questions about any kind of marriage, its way deeper than that and until you at the very least consider that its gonna be a rough road however you go. Itll wont be easy even after you consider it. Just watch the sweeping generalizations, that's where you get fucked up and stung, I've been guilty of it and am susceptible to the consequences as well.
I think this kinda sums up what i was trying to get at before. I'm just trying to acknowledge that while I still wouldn't want it myself (God knows just having my famiuly involved in planning aspects of the wedding is nightmarish enough for me right now) I can see it might be feasible in a culture where the family unit preceeds the right/want of the individual.
All that other bullshit like honour killings and the obvious social stigma (or criminalisation) around divorce is not, in and of itself, related to arranged marriage. I think the freedome to divorce in Western society has been one of the single most important steps in freeing women. Now I'm off to play my Laura Lee albums
Marrying someone is probably the most important choice of your life.
If that's not your own free choice to make as an individual,
I guess you're fucked.
India probably stands out as one of the non islamic countries with the least regard for women's rights.
Statistics say that 37% of women in India who have been married have experienced spousal violence.
Marriage in India is an economic transaction and families who can't afford the dowry needed to find a husband for their future daughters often have an abortion or kill female newborns. An estimated 5 Million female fetuses are killed every year. As a result, for 1.000 men, there are only 920 women.
What about the popular and increasing Indian folklore of "Bride Burning" where a husband who thinks that the dowry was insufficient, facially disfigures, mutilates or kills his wife with burning charcoil, oil or gasoline.
This my friend is not a matter of "different culture". This is the absence of anything I would call "culture".
I don't know anything about 'bride burning'
For the record, I am personally not about arranged marriages, but I've seen with my own eyes how many have worked out and am just giving my insight. It was more than just an economic transaction, they met each other beforehand, and it wasn't forced upon them. I'm all for individual rights and agree on the your stance on marriage. But don't run off these statistics at me without telling me where they come from. Have you even been to India? Absence of culture? It seems to me like you're just picking out some negative aspects and using it to cover a whole populus. Its 2007, man. Its just like anywhere else, where you got the psycho orthodox and the progressive minded.
Do you have sources for these stats?
Assuming these are valid, the numbers tell a pretty disturbing story. But the conclusions you draw and your attitude of cultural superiority are really unnecessary.
Marriage in India can be an "economic transaction" in some cases -- but not in all cases as you suggest. Bride burning is not folklore, but is a gruesome reality, and is hardly "popular and increasing" -- it's been around a long time yet I have not seen any evidence it is on the rise.
Your final statement is offensive -- you are saying an abhorrent practice such as bride burning equals a total lack of culture? Kind of an extreme position to take, isn't it?
india has metropolitan areas and these areas do have a modern take on arranged marriages. but for every forward thinking indian metro india, there are at at least 10 backwards villagers. india is still largely an agricultural nation. and the rural culture is pretty sheltered from the progressiveness of the city.
my mother was the daughter of a politician and my father was a farmer's son. when i go back, i see both sides. and both are amazing and pretty appalling.
but dude, you cant go off what you know and see as sole fact. the country is huge.
Nah man, apologies didn't mean it that way, I was just sharing my perspective I might have worded it wrong. I got hot and took some of that shit personal.
However, I've been to three different women refugee houses and I'll never forget what I've seen there.
There are many things wrong with the system, dowry related killings are still a regular occurence, child marriages are horrible and the male-female ratio is alarming in some areas, but that does not mean that the system is totally bad or a lack of culture exists.
Additionally, one should not forget that the Western system is also based on a lot of rules and the outcome - compared to arranged marriages - is often the same (meaning people of similar status, background, social class usually marry each other).
Exactly
Plus
Its important to remember though its not common to have an Arranged Marriage in the U.S, We definitely have Re-Arranged ones. Some cases are worse than others and other cases it takes people three or four tries.
Arranged marriage isn't the defying factor of all the cruelty upon women throughout the world, thats for damn sure.
There are immeasurable amounts of instances across the globe that have nothing to do with marriage or love for that matter. A lot of things come into the factor such as population control in China, Africa, Not to mention prostitution, mail order brides, good ol' domestic violence, child sex slaves, the list goes on and on...its a fucked up world and contemporary "regular western" marriage is just as much a contributing factor to the fucked-up-ness as arranged marriages are.
East Vs. West : knowing they will have a significant other choosen for them, or knowing that its ok to marry over and over again until you get it right. Either way, socially acceptable or not, is one really better than the other? I mean, marry and divorce, have a bunch of kids with different dads, but go forbid you parents help you choose a life mate that will be with your forever because they made a vow, a real one....not the american kind.
It still all comes down to personal belief.
And I hardly think its fair to think that women are the only ones who "suffer" in an arranged marriage.
You just never know.
http://www2.cnn.com/WORLD/9508/india/burning_brides/index.html
http://www.indianchild.com/dowry_in_india.htm
I've seen news reports and read in various papers about this.
Dowry murders are on the rise and that's according to official numbers provided by the Indian Government.
As with the number of bride burnings being on the rise. I've read about this in a recent article in Spiegel magazine (roughly the German equivalent of Time magazine).
My point about girl baby killings and the targeted abortion of female fetuses resulting in a lack of brides and the number of 920 females on 1.000 males was also made on the official numbers provided by the Indian government. Look this shit up online.
It is very easy to find tons of information on things like these online. it seems like there are several groups in India who try to make these things public. There are also a lot of very strict laws against these horrible things, they just don't seem to have much of an impact.
The point I was trying to make is that it is wrong to excuse customs and traditions that hinder a free and self-determined life as a "cultural good". Arranged marriage in my opinion is a horrible thing because it lets others make a crucial and life-changing decision for you.
My further point was that arranged marriage is usually a feature of certain traditions that also include other aspects of paternalism, sexism and exploitation of women.
India still stands out as a country with horrible cases of abuse that are all excused as a part of tradition or religion. Another example are temple prostitutes:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/11/25/wslave25.xml
No, I've never been to India, maybe one day I'll go but there are many, many other places I'd much rather go to.
I'll go ahead and also play the paranoid narcissist, if anyone wants to take the 'go make an african mix' comment out of context (actually like those mixes) don't do it. Y'all should try and scale back on ho cake activity if thats what youre about
Im just wary of minority on minority bullshit and cultural clash in general... these types of arguments tend to go nowhere when people have already made up their minds.
I cant believe no one has mentioned this yet.
the First Woman President of India
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6909979.stm
A thousand years behind ( u.s.)? Will this change everything???
I'd like to point out again that India is not the only country with arranged marriage, domestic violence & murder.
In fact, I wanted to see what the Domestic violence statistics were compared to the U.S. because as Frank had stated above, the rate in India is 37%
According to statistics, Its a whole 6 point difference. The U.S. chimes in just under a third (31%) of women who report domestic violence. Call me crazy, but That doesn't really seem like that big of a difference. And the reasoning in a lot of cases is the same. Money and Children, Fear and regret..... So again, what is the difference of injustices to women in India to Injustices to Women all over the world, the U.S included, one of the most culturally inept or confused, if not the most confused population in the world.
It doesn't seem fair to me to single out an entire country when we dont have much room to speak, especially considering our lack of understanding of their moral grounds for arranged marriage. If there is one thing americans dont have a whole lot of its morals.
OH! and R.I.P. Tammy Faye
is the news ticker broken or something??
First Women Prez of India is pretty serious though.
thanks alice!
That's fine and I don't want to be a nitpicker, but the President is not that important in India, as it is a parliamentary and not a presidential democracy.
Indira Gandhi has been prime minister for a long time (from 1966 onwards and again in the 80s) and she had power.
Even Sonia Gandhi (the former wife of prime minister Rajiv Gandhi, who was assassinated in the early 90s) was quite influential in the Congress party in recent years. Although these two achieved a lot of their power, only because they were members of the Nehru dynasty, these are (or were) the most prominent powerful women in India so far.
Thats cool, I didnt know that, thanks for the added info.
Really I just don't understand all the harping on India in this thread. I think there is terrible shit happening to people all over the world that has nothing to do with Arranged Marriage. Im not saying Bride Burning is not a problem, but it seems statistically we have a compariable amount of domestic violence here in the U.S. Just sayin'
it's just a shame that so many of the rare cases of female heads of state turn out to be terrible heads of state.
Gandhi was totally corrupt and instituted a years-long state of emergency to stay in power.
Golda Meir was easily Israel's worst prime minister.
Thatcher was...well she wasn't exactly my cup of tea.