To me that runs more in the older generations and seems to be less prevelant in the younger generations. It's almost as if the younger generations have no racial identity of their own which is apparent in a lot of the extreme music trends that happen.
I guess xenophobic was a bad word choice. I meant more along the lines of "Hey, I've never seen (insert race of your choice) person up close and personal before. I'm scared", compared to outright racism.
How is someone in Japan supposed to pick up on these stereotypes then? Japan may be classified as xenophobic but there's a huge difference between that and racism.
I'd say they pick up on them because they immerse themselves in American culture...look at the Japanese pop band in blackface on their CD covers earlier in the thread...am I supposed to assume they are doing that without any concept of minstrelry and it's impact on american culture and racial stereotyping?
So, music group doing blackface = all of Japan knowing about racial stereotypes involving black people?
I don't think any country, no matter how much they emmulate, fully grasp the depth of the racial divide and history we have here. I'm not condoning anything by any means, but I don't think people get dreadlocks or color their skin maliciously. The caricatures of black folks over there on products etc, and i'm only guessing here, are probably viewed more as a kitchy thing than any thing else. I could be wrong though.
How is someone in Japan supposed to pick up on these stereotypes then? Japan may be classified as xenophobic but there's a huge difference between that and racism.
I'd say they pick up on them because they immerse themselves in American culture...look at the Japanese pop band in blackface on their CD covers earlier in the thread...am I supposed to assume they are doing that without any concept of minstrelry and it's impact on american culture and racial stereotyping?
So, music group doing blackface = all of Japan knowing about racial stereotypes involving black people?
Brian, you are just putting words in my mouth now. In fact, I said the opposite, which was the possibility that there are certain people in Japan who enjoy the derisive stereotyping of Black Americans, but certainly not everyone in Japan, or even everyone who enjoys "Sambo"...just as not every white American was racist scumbag during the era of segregation - or today, for that matter. The "impressive" sales numbers in the original article about Sambo being republished in Japan were 40,000 copies. What percentage of Japan's population is 40,000? Not much, right?
So what was your point about the whole blackface thing? Yes, I'm sure there are people in Japan who are aware of the many stereotypes associated with black people but like day just mentioned in a much better way than I did, shits a lot different in the US than it is over there. The difference between Japan and Texas is that our media has been brainwashing us into thinking Iraqis are evil people.
My point about the blackface thing was that, with the degree to which the Japanese immerse themselves in - and even sometimes pride themselves on their knowledge of - American culture, you would think they would be aware that performing in "blackface" is considered pretty offensive, at least in this country and by the very people they are mimicing - although the relatively recent (1980's) US release of the white-in-blackface film "Soul Man" shows people in our own country just don't seem to get it either.
And, yes, I know the Iraqi example was a bit extreme, since we are technically "at war" with them, which means they will be demonized heavily at most levels of our culture, yet I just find it so sad to see entire cultures treated as "backwards" or "savage" when they are actually a highly educated people, with an ancient culture that is fascinating and deserving of respect.
Yes, since I didn't learn it in school, what little I do know of it I learned from reading on my own, and a little more from some PBS programming in the last few years.
My bad; perfect example of people wrongly assuming things . Sorry about that. My point is, beyond the random world history class and the racist ass news, most people (here I go assuming again) in America are not going to learn anything about Iraq. Not too many people go out and seek knowledge like you have. I'm willing to bet that it's very similar in Japan.
No prob, and I agree with what you say, but I think the point I was just trying to argue was that we can't just assume people in Japan enjoy these classically racist caricatures from America only because they just naively think they are "cute," and not because they see Blacks "that way," like the ignorant Americans who bought into the commercial racism of our past (ie Sambo's rest. chain) did; the lack of Blacks in their country doesn't mean they can't have ignorant impressions of them. Most of the racist Americans I know persoanlly are the ones who live in places where they never have gone to school with a black person, never worked a job with them - all they know of people of other races is what our culture and their peers/family tell them. Racism where I grew up was passed down from parents to children, you would hear the parents spouting off all this hateful shit, and the kids seemed to take pride in repeating it later, as if it made them grown up or something, it was sickening.
To use myself as an example, I am Japanese, English, Irish, and Scottish and have lived in Hawaii all my life (22 years.) One of my friends from the mainland cracked some joke about black people and watermelon a few years back and I honestly had no idea what the fuck he was talking about. However, I can tell you nearly every stereotype regarding Japanese, Korean, Chinese, and whatever the fuck else Asian group. I think that it is not violently opposed in Japan is because American history (which has a lot to do with racism towards black people) is not a huge part of Japan's education. People in the US are more aware of racism towards black people due to our own history and it occuring still til this day. I'm not saying that people are completely unaware that shits just basically making fun of black people. I'm saying that some people might just think it's a cartoon and leave it at that. Someone in this thread mentioned that they read this book when they were a kid and it seemed all right because they didn't know better. Well, if you are unaware of the racism towards black people around the world, you may have the same reaction too.
I don't think any country, no matter how much they emmulate, fully grasp the depth of the racial divide and history we have here. I'm not condoning anything by any means, but I don't think people get dreadlocks or color their skin maliciously. The caricatures of black folks over there on products etc, and i'm only guessing here, are probably viewed more as a kitchy thing than any thing else. I could be wrong though.
No, day, I think you're right on. For starters, think about how many Americans are oblivious to the degree that racism is entrenched in our cultural history. Just tonight my dad told me that he was recently shocked to learn that blacks fought in the Civil War...and this is a college educated man we're talking about here. Does that make my dad a racist? Of course not, but it's illustrative of the way that this country's history has been systematically white-washed for our own guiltless consumption. And, where, if not from American textbooks, are the Japanese supposed to get their information from? Unless the Japanese miraculously stumbled into an enlightened comprehension of American race relations, my guess is that they are vaguely aware of America's mottled history of racism/subjugation but lack a substantive understanding of the attendant issues that would allow them to articulate exactly why a character like Sambo is 'blatantly racist'.
i'm sure you mean no harm...but to say a Kewpie doll is no more offensive than a Sambo doll is beyond mind boggling......
In the US.
I totally agree with you, but you've tried to make the same point four times now and I think you're wasting your time - Americans generally expect everyone to see things from their point of view and behave acordingly.
i dont know about yall but i loved that book growing up. i never saw it as anything but this little boy running around the tree trying to get away from the tigers. i used to sit and stare at those pictures for a long time. i used to imagine myself doing the same heroic thing that he did. i drooled over the pancakes that he ate and wanted to do the same thing with my family. i loved looking at the clothes he wore and the shoes and the illustrations in general.
i will read that book to my child at the appropriate age... without all of this bullshit racial feelings and thoughts that you all cant get over...
call that racist or not... i dont give a fuck... these race threads pop up on our site every few months and nothing gets resolved because motherfuckers cant get over their own shit. everyone complaining about this and that and fuck white people cause theyre all devils and slave owners and chinese people cant drive and korean people eat dog and black people are violent and lazy (which really doesnt make a lot of sense to me but whatever) and indian folkers are terrorists... blah blah blah... stop putting all these damn negative racial images in your head and fucking pull your pampers up...
im sure at some point or another weve all had some racial problem thrown at us... its inevitable especially living here in america. not one of your fucking problems is worse than anyone elses at this point so stop all this bullshit crying over some fucking kids book that hurts all your fucking feelings... jesus christ...
so stop all this bullshit crying over some fucking kids book that hurts all your fucking feelings...
sorry you feel this image shouldn't bother me
it bothers you that some asshole 50+ years ago, during a time that is still shameful to americans (and not just whites but all nationalities), thought that this was a good idea to make? why? why would you let that offend you? fuck that shit ed... for real. sometimes i get annoyed...
i gotta go... ill pick this shit up later when i get back...
it bothers you that some asshole 50+ years ago, during a time that is still shameful to americans (and not just whites but all nationalities), thought that this was a good idea to make? why? why would you let that offend you? fuck that shit ed... for real. sometimes i get annoyed...
i understand your perspective and i'm the last person on this site to whine about racism ...i actually find it comical that there are so many race threads on here when 99% of the participants are white....to me that solves nothing...so i stay away.....those images are offensive because they represent something that affected blacks 50+ years ago and today.....it just really bothers me when people tell others what they should and should not be offended by....it comes across as "get over it n*gger..pull yourself up by your boot straps....." THIS IS NOT DIRECTED AT YOU SPECIFICALLY JINX....just those in general who feel Sambo is o.k. .....
I'm with Jinx on this one...I had that book as a kid and I loved it, just like him I imagined being the kid that out ran the tigers around the tree and got to eat all the pancakes...I NEVER ONCE had any racist thoughts...and here's the kicker. The book was given to me by my moms best friend and business partner who is African American. (GASP!)
They had a toy store together called Marcy Street Toy Shop...the logo was 2 rag dolls, one black one white sitting together. It was cute. My moms partner also collected Aunt Jemima type memoribilia and Watermelon stuff. She thought it was all funny...I never once ever in my life saw those things as racist because they weren't shown to me that way. to this day, I see something like an Aunt Jemima ceramic spoon holder and think of her, not the negative stereotypes. Like Day was saying about the Japanese, her view on all this was leaning WAAAAAY towards the kitschy side of things. And as a result that's my view on all of that stuff.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's all based on personal experience and how things are presented to you in your life...I'm allowed to see these things as endearing just like J**m*l is allowed to see them as racist, and for completely different reasons. J**m*l is my homie and I consider the dude a friend whose opinion I respect completely, but that doesn't change my life's experiences.
i also had a viewmaster reel set of little black sambo.
now i don't remmber which was which but the character was portrayed differently in both... in one he looked like a little indian boy and in the other he was the classic "sambo" stereotype.
the book is not racist in the slightest.. it's about a boy and his fantastic adventure with tigers.. its complete make believe fantasy.. there's no negativity towards the character of the boy WHATSOEVER in the story.. as a matter of fact he outwits to the tigers and is generally portrayed as a resourceful smart witty little chap.
now the big problem is that unfortunatly his name was Sambo and its prefected by the word BLACK.
which when the story was brought to america it had the racist imagery associated with the name sambo and the character of the google eyed big lipped black stereotype grafted upon it.
it doesnt change the fact that the story itself is not racist.. the imagery used in SOME versions of the story ARE racist...
i dont think the book should be banned.. i think it should be put back into its original cultural context and left at that.
can you imagine if somebody decided to change whiney the pooh from a little bear into the classic Sambo black face?? would it make the story racist?? no .. it would make the imagery in that VERSION of the story racist but it doesnt change the fact that the original text / context of the work was not racist.
i thought it was interesting that, in this telling of the story sambo is white, hence the little I>brave/I> sambo.
i can't find the links right now, but i remember a little while back i googled little black sambo and found some downright frightening white supremicist type message board discussions...
naw i know nothing is directed specifically at me... were having grown folk talk and theres nothing negative about that... different people with different viewpoints are okay by me...
and i agree with the fact that you shouldnt let people dictate what you should be against and what you should be about. you are your own man and thats the way the world and its people should view you. however that isnt the case... theres a lot of negative people out there of all races and genders and people are attacked daily, hourly, and by the minute by people with this backwards ass thinking...
all im saying is that in this day and age we as people need to stop letting shit that is racial influenced and motivated become overly personal in our lives. ive said this time and time again... ive never been accepted by any nationality. im not white enough to fit in with them, latinos think im white because i dont look latin enough nor do i speak spanish, ive only ever listened to black music and have so much hate and racial prejudice from those folks that its quite comical to me now, i only date asian women and chinese, japanese, korean, etc have tried to step to me my whole life wilding out in their families language, etc... my life has been racial since the beginning...
oh well... if a group full of crackers wanna set it off great... talk all the shit that you want... it wont really affect me... im a grown ass man who can handle that shit.
if a group of niggers wanna step thats great too... i can be the cracker, honky, white boy, etc to them all day... theyre still going to look like racist assholes...
the same goes for any asian nationality and those fucking dirty latinos down the mission too who i had shit to say to me while growing up...
my opinion is that racism is stupid and if you believe in it and let it affect you well then that just makes you even stupider... and this was written for all those who feel this applies to them... why? cause i dont give a fuck...
actually i dont know anyones nationality really... im merely suggestion that if you keep believing in hate and racism that only further perpetuates that reality to others... you can hate Sambo and Aunt Jemima characters all day if you want... im just saying that youre breeding that same hate into your younger nieces, nephews, cousins, brothers, sisters, and your own kids...
Are a bunch of white dudes arguing/questioning a black guy why he's a offended by Sambo characters?
SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME I'M WRONG [/b]
I've thought the same thing many times with different threads on race. Most times (including this thread) I feel like I don't have a place to say shit cause honestly, no matter how many Black folks you're friends with, or how accepted you are, you don't walk around this world as a Black person so really, what the fuck can you say?
I think there needs to be an open discussion on race without a doubt, and our refusal to do so in this country only perpetuates the problems we face, but how can you have a legitimate talk on race when 99% of the people involved are of another?
Just tonight my dad told me that he was recently shocked to learn that blacks fought in the Civil War...and this is a college educated man we're talking about here. Does that make my dad a racist? Of course not, but it's illustrative of the way that this country's history has been systematically white-washed for our own guiltless consumption.
I hate when they hide these things from the general public, especially in big screen blockbusters:
Comments
I guess xenophobic was a bad word choice. I meant more along the lines of "Hey, I've never seen (insert race of your choice) person up close and personal before. I'm scared", compared to outright racism.
The caricatures of black folks over there on products etc, and i'm only guessing here, are probably viewed more as a kitchy thing than any thing else. I could be wrong though.
Brian, you are just putting words in my mouth now. In fact, I said the opposite, which was the possibility that there are certain people in Japan who enjoy the derisive stereotyping of Black Americans, but certainly not everyone in Japan, or even everyone who enjoys "Sambo"...just as not every white American was racist scumbag during the era of segregation - or today, for that matter. The "impressive" sales numbers in the original article about Sambo being republished in Japan were 40,000 copies. What percentage of Japan's population is 40,000? Not much, right?
And, yes, I know the Iraqi example was a bit extreme, since we are technically "at war" with them, which means they will be demonized heavily at most levels of our culture, yet I just find it so sad to see entire cultures treated as "backwards" or "savage" when they are actually a highly educated people, with an ancient culture that is fascinating and deserving of respect.
No, day, I think you're right on. For starters, think about how many Americans are oblivious to the degree that racism is entrenched in our cultural history. Just tonight my dad told me that he was recently shocked to learn that blacks fought in the Civil War...and this is a college educated man we're talking about here. Does that make my dad a racist? Of course not, but it's illustrative of the way that this country's history has been systematically white-washed for our own guiltless consumption. And, where, if not from American textbooks, are the Japanese supposed to get their information from? Unless the Japanese miraculously stumbled into an enlightened comprehension of American race relations, my guess is that they are vaguely aware of America's mottled history of racism/subjugation but lack a substantive understanding of the attendant issues that would allow them to articulate exactly why a character like Sambo is 'blatantly racist'.
I totally agree with you, but you've tried to make the same point four times now and I think you're wasting your time - Americans generally expect everyone to see things from their point of view and behave acordingly.
i will read that book to my child at the appropriate age... without all of this bullshit racial feelings and thoughts that you all cant get over...
call that racist or not... i dont give a fuck... these race threads pop up on our site every few months and nothing gets resolved because motherfuckers cant get over their own shit. everyone complaining about this and that and fuck white people cause theyre all devils and slave owners and chinese people cant drive and korean people eat dog and black people are violent and lazy (which really doesnt make a lot of sense to me but whatever) and indian folkers are terrorists... blah blah blah... stop putting all these damn negative racial images in your head and fucking pull your pampers up...
im sure at some point or another weve all had some racial problem thrown at us... its inevitable especially living here in america. not one of your fucking problems is worse than anyone elses at this point so stop all this bullshit crying over some fucking kids book that hurts all your fucking feelings... jesus christ...
sorry you feel this image shouldn't bother me
it bothers you that some asshole 50+ years ago, during a time that is still shameful to americans (and not just whites but all nationalities), thought that this was a good idea to make? why? why would you let that offend you? fuck that shit ed... for real. sometimes i get annoyed...
i gotta go... ill pick this shit up later when i get back...
i understand your perspective and i'm the last person on this site to whine about racism ...i actually find it comical that there are so many race threads on here when 99% of the participants are white....to me that solves nothing...so i stay away.....those images are offensive because they represent something that affected blacks 50+ years ago and today.....it just really bothers me when people tell others what they should and should not be offended by....it comes across as "get over it n*gger..pull yourself up by your boot straps....." THIS IS NOT DIRECTED AT YOU SPECIFICALLY JINX....just those in general who feel Sambo is o.k. .....
gotta go too....later
Hey all new to SS.
Interesting topic. Perhaps people can't get over the racial feelings and thoughts because books like Sambo perpetuate negative stereotypes.
They had a toy store together called Marcy Street Toy Shop...the logo was 2 rag dolls, one black one white sitting together. It was cute. My moms partner also collected Aunt Jemima type memoribilia and Watermelon stuff. She thought it was all funny...I never once ever in my life saw those things as racist because they weren't shown to me that way. to this day, I see something like an Aunt Jemima ceramic spoon holder and think of her, not the negative stereotypes. Like Day was saying about the Japanese, her view on all this was leaning WAAAAAY towards the kitschy side of things. And as a result that's my view on all of that stuff.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's all based on personal experience and how things are presented to you in your life...I'm allowed to see these things as endearing just like J**m*l is allowed to see them as racist, and for completely different reasons. J**m*l is my homie and I consider the dude a friend whose opinion I respect completely, but that doesn't change my life's experiences.
i also had a viewmaster reel set of little black sambo.
now i don't remmber which was which but the character was portrayed differently in both... in one he looked like a little indian boy and in the other he was the classic "sambo" stereotype.
the book is not racist in the slightest.. it's about a boy and his fantastic adventure with tigers.. its complete make believe fantasy.. there's no negativity towards the character of the boy WHATSOEVER in the story.. as a matter of fact he outwits to the tigers and is generally portrayed as a resourceful smart witty little chap.
now the big problem is that unfortunatly his name was Sambo and its prefected by the word BLACK.
which when the story was brought to america it had the racist imagery associated with the name sambo and the character of the google eyed big lipped black stereotype grafted upon it.
it doesnt change the fact that the story itself is not racist.. the imagery used in SOME versions of the story ARE racist...
i dont think the book should be banned.. i think it should be put back into its original cultural context and left at that.
can you imagine if somebody decided to change whiney the pooh from a little bear into the classic Sambo black face?? would it make the story racist?? no .. it would make the imagery in that VERSION of the story racist but it doesnt change the fact that the original text / context of the work was not racist.
i thought it was interesting that, in this telling of the story sambo is white, hence the little I>brave/I> sambo.
i can't find the links right now, but i remember a little while back i googled little black sambo and found some downright frightening white supremicist type message board discussions...
and i agree with the fact that you shouldnt let people dictate what you should be against and what you should be about. you are your own man and thats the way the world and its people should view you. however that isnt the case... theres a lot of negative people out there of all races and genders and people are attacked daily, hourly, and by the minute by people with this backwards ass thinking...
all im saying is that in this day and age we as people need to stop letting shit that is racial influenced and motivated become overly personal in our lives. ive said this time and time again... ive never been accepted by any nationality. im not white enough to fit in with them, latinos think im white because i dont look latin enough nor do i speak spanish, ive only ever listened to black music and have so much hate and racial prejudice from those folks that its quite comical to me now, i only date asian women and chinese, japanese, korean, etc have tried to step to me my whole life wilding out in their families language, etc... my life has been racial since the beginning...
oh well... if a group full of crackers wanna set it off great... talk all the shit that you want... it wont really affect me... im a grown ass man who can handle that shit.
if a group of niggers wanna step thats great too... i can be the cracker, honky, white boy, etc to them all day... theyre still going to look like racist assholes...
the same goes for any asian nationality and those fucking dirty latinos down the mission too who i had shit to say to me while growing up...
my opinion is that racism is stupid and if you believe in it and let it affect you well then that just makes you even stupider... and this was written for all those who feel this applies to them... why? cause i dont give a fuck...
urrrie!
Are a bunch of white dudes arguing/questioning a black guy why he's a offended by Sambo characters?
SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME I'M WRONG [/b]
actually i dont know anyones nationality really... im merely suggestion that if you keep believing in hate and racism that only further perpetuates that reality to others... you can hate Sambo and Aunt Jemima characters all day if you want... im just saying that youre breeding that same hate into your younger nieces, nephews, cousins, brothers, sisters, and your own kids...
thats it...
now im going to go lay down cause im sick
I've thought the same thing many times with different threads on race. Most times (including this thread) I feel like I don't have a place to say shit cause honestly, no matter how many Black folks you're friends with, or how accepted you are, you don't walk around this world as a Black person so really, what the fuck can you say?
I think there needs to be an open discussion on race without a doubt, and our refusal to do so in this country only perpetuates the problems we face, but how can you have a legitimate talk on race when 99% of the people involved are of another?
Oooh, can we also have an official "I'm not white, I'm ___________! (Irish, Italian, Swedish, Polish, whatever)" protest form?
That would be grrrrrreeeaaaaaaat.
I hate when they hide these things from the general public, especially in big screen blockbusters:
Out in the open is the perfect place to hide.
I'm just being facetious.
Well, questioning and getting the other side's perspective can open up a new point of view for people.
I will say I'm questioning why you always look like you have lipstick on.