I was going more for pointless sensastionalism in the media, but whatever. I'm part of the "Gun bans haven't been particularly effective, so why don't we focus on underlying causes of a lot of crime instead? Organize communities so that everyone isn't isolated and blaming phantom figures and can then have a bigger voice in local politics and policies and prevent absurd rent and utility hikes, revitalize welfare-to-work programs so that your pay is docked for learning actual marketable tech skills, not having pay garnished for the 'benefit' of being a janitor, learn from past mistakes in the civil rights movements and not have it be so dependent on a few key charismatic figures that can be easily assassinated or lured away with gov't jobs/scholarships, etc." crowd.
yeah I understand he was crazy. I am just looking for some grievance, however vague
between the contents of his "plays", and references to john mark kerr (jean benet ramsey) and debra lafave (teacher on student related), i'd say with some certainty the dude was probably sexually abused at some point.
I had this same thought. And it looks to me from reading and hearing some of the things he's said that "they" are possibly kids who beat, bullied, and/or tormented him.
I hate to say it, but I can't help but feel like we as a society failed him to a certain extent.
yeah I understand he was crazy. I am just looking for some grievance, however vague
between the contents of his "plays", and references to john mark kerr (jean benet ramsey) and debra lafave (teacher on student related), i'd say with some certainty the dude was probably sexually abused at some point.
I had this same thought. And it looks to me from reading and hearing some of the things he's said that "they" are possibly kids who beat, bullied, and/or tormented him.
I hate to say it, but I can't help but feel like we as a society failed him to a certain extent.
Can you give us a few more words on this, day?
Failed by not protecting him from being subjected to abuse (of several kinds)?
"NEW YORK (AP) -- One of the photographs in the Virginia Tech killer's "multimedia manifesto" may have been inspired by a bloody South Korean movie.
"Oldboy," from the respected director Chan-woo Park, is about a man unjustly imprisoned for 15 years. After escaping, he goes on a rampage against his captor. In one scene, he dispatches more than a dozen henchmen with the aid of a hammer.
In the package of materials that Cho Seung-Hui sent to NBC News, one photo shows the killer brandishing a hammer in a pose similar to one from the film. (Watch Cho's last messages )
"Oldboy," the second film in Park's "Vengeance Trilogy," won the Gran Prix prize at the 2004 Cannes Film Festival.
The connection was spotted by Professor Paul Harris of Virginia Tech, who alerted authorities, according to London's Evening Standard. The similarities have prompted speculation, especially in online forums, that Cho's entire massacre may have been inspired by "Oldboy."
Notorious killers are commonly linked to movies or music. One blogger for the Huffington Post, filmmaker Bob Cesca, dismissed the connection as "the most ridiculous hypothesis yet" about the Virginia Tech massacre.
There was no apparent link between Cho and "Oldboy" besides the lone photograph among the 28 video clips, 23-page written message and 43 self-portrait photos that he sent to NBC. Cho killed the 32 victims with a handgun and a pistol, not a hammer. He did not seem to reference the film in any of his notes or messages."
yeah I understand he was crazy. I am just looking for some grievance, however vague
between the contents of his "plays", and references to john mark kerr (jean benet ramsey) and debra lafave (teacher on student related), i'd say with some certainty the dude was probably sexually abused at some point.
I had this same thought. And it looks to me from reading and hearing some of the things he's said that "they" are possibly kids who beat, bullied, and/or tormented him.
I hate to say it, but I can't help but feel like we as a society failed him to a certain extent.
Can you give us a few more words on this, day?
Failed by not protecting him from being subjected to abuse (of several kinds)?
Wouldn't his parents be at fault for that?
I don't know really. It was clear he had mental problems and was even diagnosed as such, yet nothing happened. From the accounts of students and teachers everyone knew he was fucked up but nobody did anything to institutionalize him - even after being deemed a threat to himself and others. And where were his parents through all of this?
Societal isolation, abuse, his parents were probably fucked up in some way, etc. I just don't think we look out for one another as much as we should and unfortunately this can be the end result.
THAT SAID, I am in no way shape or form condoning a damn thing and I honestly wanted to kill him myself at one point.
Just wondering if anyone else is seeing local stories like this?
I have been at work and all day images of dude with a gun to his head have been popping up on my sidebar news flashes. Sucks.... really nagl in my opinion
There is only one place to point the finger of blame.
It disgusts me(and I assume the victim's families) that people are searching for excuses/reasons that this happened.
It happened because one evil person planned and pulled off mass murder.
As Faux so eloquently put it in the Imus thread, there is no defending this dude.
I like you Roc, but one thing I don't agree with is seeing everything in black and white. I'm not defending ANYTHING. At all. But there were obviously other factors at work here. Like I said, I'm just trying to wrap my head around this shit.
It disgusts me(and I assume the victim's families) that people are searching for excuses/reasons that this happened.
brilliant. lets just forget it happened and chalk it up as the evil deeds of an evil person. science, sociology and psychology are a waste of time. evil people and good people. there you have it. case closed.
There is only one place to point the finger of blame.
It disgusts me(and I assume the victim's families) that people are searching for excuses/reasons that this happened.
It happened because one evil person planned and pulled off mass murder.
As Faux so eloquently put it in the Imus thread, there is no defending this dude.
I like you Roc, but one thing I don't agree with is seeing everything in black and white. I'm not defending ANYTHING. At all. But there were obviously other factors at work here. Like I said, I'm just trying to wrap my head around this shit.
Dude either couldn't get laid, had no friends, either by choice or a result of him being anti-social. Hated the world, hated himself and thought this would be a way people would pay attention to him and he would have the last word.
Why do you have to "wrap your head" around everything.....if everything in your life is gray, you'll never find the answer to any of your questions.
It disgusts me(and I assume the victim's families) that people are searching for excuses/reasons that this happened.
brilliant. lets just forget it happened and chalk it up as the evil deeds of an evil person. science, sociology and psychology are a waste of time. evil people and good people. there you have it. case closed.
Science, sociology and psychology has been working on this a long time.
Since the problem is apparently worse today then say 50 years ago I give them all failing marks.
It disgusts me(and I assume the victim's families) that people are searching for excuses/reasons that this happened.
brilliant. lets just forget it happened and chalk it up as the evil deeds of an evil person. science, sociology and psychology are a waste of time. evil people and good people. there you have it. case closed.
I don't think that's what Rock was meaning. I think that seeing his video (I was only able to stomach about 25 seconds) showed me a person who was hopelessly maladjusted and who probably stumped casual aquaintances and family in the same way: what do you do with someone so angry who shows such little empathy/understanding of the world? To try and find 'meaning' in his actions or assume that we are somehow going to unlock the mystery and prevent these kind of tragedies in the future is just wishful thinking.
And Drew, I would not place any of the blame for this tragedy at his parents doorstep without all the facts. People make thier own choices and suffer from their own demons/problems regardless. I agree with Rock that the blame belongs on one pathetic, fucked-up guy.
We need to figure out why the people who KNEW or suspected he was a bad guy didn't do anything about it.
This is the toughest question to answer from all this. Not the why, but what do you do with a guy with this many warning signs? I work in a university & encounter kids every day that are crying for help. The level of indiference on the part of such institutions is amazing, though.
We need to figure out why the people who KNEW or suspected he was a bad guy didn't do anything about it.
nothing i've read says that people thought he was a bad guy. creepy, weird, strange, quiet are the most common words i've come across to describe him, but from what i can tell nobody thought that he was a bad person and a threat to the public.
I have a VA-Tech email account and just checked my messages for the first time yesterday. Opening it up was more unsettling than any news report I've read. There were ten or so emails which occured as the events unfolded. Even the bomb threats before the 16th were on there. While I was not in Blacksburg (I work at a satellite campus) it is very tense here in Northern VA, as many students killed were from this area, including a co-workers daughter. I dont have much to contribute to this conversation other than I think its wise for one to wait a bit and think before you drop any strong opinions. We all heal and cope differently; some vent, some debate, some keep quiet. Just do not loose a friend in the aftermath of this.
It disgusts me(and I assume the victim's families) that people are searching for excuses/reasons that this happened.
brilliant. lets just forget it happened and chalk it up as the evil deeds of an evil person. science, sociology and psychology are a waste of time. evil people and good people. there you have it. case closed.
Science, sociology and psychology has been working on this a long time.
Since the problem is apparently worse today then say 50 years ago I give them all failing marks.
Anyone who has had a family member with mental illness knows that commitment is near impossible.
The school not only offers counseling, but refered him to counseling. His parents had him commited (briefly). Many teachers and students had voiced their concerns.
The way the laws (which vary state to state) are today if you do not threaten or harm someone or yourself there is almost no way a person like that can be arrested or commited.
The phrase is 'a threat to themselves or others'. Clearly he was a threat to others. But proving that when he made no threats and harmed no one is next to impossible.
Perhaps laws will now be changed to allow concerned family to have someone commited.
Let me be clear, the family knew he was sick. His counsolers knew he was sick. His school knew he was sick. The police knew he was sick. His classmates knew he was sick. The doctors at the place where he was commited knew he was sick. But he was allowed to go free because in our socitey adults are allowed to be refuse treatment.
The rea$on for thi$ is no one want$ to pay to treat the mentally ill. The mentally ill don't want treatment because... They are mentally ill.
Radical changes to our mental health system would do much more than the tightening or losening of gun laws.
He was not evil, he was sick. He was not failed by his parents, he was failed by us.
I have a VA-Tech email account and just checked my messages for the first time yesterday. Opening it up was more unsettling than any news report I've read. There were ten or so emails which occured as the events unfolded. Even the bomb threats before the 16th were on there. While I was not in Blacksburg (I work at a satellite campus) it is very tense here in Northern VA, as many students killed were from this area, including a co-workers daughter. I dont have much to contribute to this conversation other than I think its wise for one to wait a bit and think before you drop any strong opinions. We all heal and cope differently; some vent, some debate, some keep quiet. Just do not loose a friend in the aftermath of this.
But..but...but...WHY was he a bad guy, we have to figure it out and try to uuunnnddderstand him.
NO WE DON'T.
We need to figure out why the people who KNEW or suspected he was a bad guy didn't do anything about it.
But dude was smart and coherent enough to put together a doctrine, make videos, and do exactly what he set out to do long ago.
I'm just glad he's dead and can't do anymore harm.
Rockadelic and everyone else saying, "It's good he's dead". Do you honestly believe that?
If EVERYONE knew that he was psychologically unstable, why didn't ANYONE fully commit themselves to helping him out of his deep deep hole.
This is another example from similar cases like this all over the world. There have been many cases in Japan, where small kids stab their teachers "out of the blue". Parents killing their children. Children killing their parents. etcetera etcetera. And this is just in Japan.
I believe it's in everyone's interest to atleast raise the awareness of society's shortcomings and needs of people. Overachievers and Winners are everything in society. Much is overlooked.
There ain't no such thing as utopia, but we can atleast try.
School shootings are notably DOWN from their height in the early '90s.
A lot of things have changed since 50 years ago. The increased number of guns in American society, per capita, for example.
Not sure if "evil" is higher or lower than the past though.
I respect the fact that you prefer a simpler explanation for "why bad shit happens" but "evil" is actually a defeatist attitude to take since inherent to the concept of "evil" is the idea that it can't be changed.
Also, "doing evil" and "being evil" are different animals. I'm not even sure how you can prove the latter except by examining the former. However, as humans, we've all done evil things at some point or another but I doubt that means we're all evil people.
Also, "doing evil" and "being evil" are different animals. I'm not even sure how you can prove the latter except by examining the former. However, as humans, we've all done evil things at some point or another but I doubt that means we're all evil people.
Also, "doing evil" and "being evil" are different animals. I'm not even sure how you can prove the latter except by examining the former. However, as humans, we've all done evil things at some point or another but I doubt that means we're all evil people.
Says the "chicken vs. the egg" guy.
Mike - the two things you're citing are apples and oranges.
(Feel to free to work in a "horse/cart" analogy here).
Also, "doing evil" and "being evil" are different animals. I'm not even sure how you can prove the latter except by examining the former. However, as humans, we've all done evil things at some point or another but I doubt that means we're all evil people.
Says the "chicken vs. the egg" guy.
Mike - the two things you're citing are apples and oranges.
(Feel to free to work in a "horse/cart" analogy here).
What comes first, the chicken or the egg?
What comes first, being evil or doing evil?
I might have misinterpreted your point (probably did). And anyway, I'm just razzing you.
y'all are slowly but surely steppin' in the arena of "the good or bad", the "right or wrong", and it's gonna be endless. It's good that he died, it's wrong that he didn't get treated medically, it's right to hate him, it's wrong to wish death, etc...
For me, dude is to be treated like a pedophile. I DON'T want to help a pedophile, i don't wanna know why he did it, how he did it. He can surely rot in hell or die in a prison, i could care less. I keep my feelings and emotions for valid cause. Not insane shit. That Korean dude, even if you manage to control the whole American population, he would still exist. It's that ONE dude that you can't see coming...It's senseless to try to fell guilty arguing about how could it be avoided. It just can't. Americans shouldn't feel guilty about guns, hiphop or whatsoever. It's just him, a random korean dude.
i did yuichi, and you're so on point...Maybe i'm more pessimistic and i feel like you can't do shit about that one dude and all the potential "one dude" all over the world. I wasn't saying that for the people in here anyway, more for the people outside, the journalists that will feed their kids thanks to this story, to the talk-shows that will make endless debates, you know...
School shootings are notably DOWN from their height in the early '90s.
The "school shooting" was virtually unheard of until the late 80's....you know that MANY of the school shootings we have had were by children that HAD been treated by our psychiatric community.
Dispensing drugs like candy, turning children into mind numbed zombies. Factions blame the drugs themselves, while others blame the fact that they stopped taking their drugs.
Just the fact the the VT dude mentions the Columbine killers tells me he had a role model, a plan and the mind to go to great extremes to make his plan work.
Our society doesn't LIKE to hold individuals responsible for their actions(Unless it's some moronic racist).
We feel that as humans, we are so intellectual that we MUST be able to figure out the anwser to everything, there just HAS to be a reason beyond....the guy is a bad human.
I believe there are lots of bad humans.
I believe they all took their own special paths getting there.
Those who commit crimes, whether it be rape, robbery or murder, all have reasons that CAUSED them to do it.
Quite frankly, I'm not interested in what caused them to do it.
Every human only has one person to blame for their actions.
Not society, not the guy who molested them, not the poverty they were born into.
The person they see when they look in the mirror.
And as long as we keep rationalizing their actions by placing blame elsewhere, it's not gonna slow down.
Let me ask everyone who viewed this VT dude's video one question.
Comments
I had this same thought. And it looks to me from reading and hearing some of the things he's said that "they" are possibly kids who beat, bullied, and/or tormented him.
I hate to say it, but I can't help but feel like we as a society failed him to a certain extent.
Can you give us a few more words on this, day?
Failed by not protecting him from being subjected to abuse (of several kinds)?
Wouldn't his parents be at fault for that?
"NEW YORK (AP) -- One of the photographs in the Virginia Tech killer's "multimedia manifesto" may have been inspired by a bloody South Korean movie.
"Oldboy," from the respected director Chan-woo Park, is about a man unjustly imprisoned for 15 years. After escaping, he goes on a rampage against his captor. In one scene, he dispatches more than a dozen henchmen with the aid of a hammer.
In the package of materials that Cho Seung-Hui sent to NBC News, one photo shows the killer brandishing a hammer in a pose similar to one from the film. (Watch Cho's last messages )
"Oldboy," the second film in Park's "Vengeance Trilogy," won the Gran Prix prize at the 2004 Cannes Film Festival.
The connection was spotted by Professor Paul Harris of Virginia Tech, who alerted authorities, according to London's Evening Standard. The similarities have prompted speculation, especially in online forums, that Cho's entire massacre may have been inspired by "Oldboy."
Notorious killers are commonly linked to movies or music. One blogger for the Huffington Post, filmmaker Bob Cesca, dismissed the connection as "the most ridiculous hypothesis yet" about the Virginia Tech massacre.
There was no apparent link between Cho and "Oldboy" besides the lone photograph among the 28 video clips, 23-page written message and 43 self-portrait photos that he sent to NBC. Cho killed the 32 victims with a handgun and a pistol, not a hammer. He did not seem to reference the film in any of his notes or messages."
Responsible journalism?
I don't know really.
It was clear he had mental problems and was even diagnosed as such, yet nothing happened. From the accounts of students and teachers everyone knew he was fucked up but nobody did anything to institutionalize him - even after being deemed a threat to himself and others. And where were his parents through all of this?
Societal isolation, abuse, his parents were probably fucked up in some way, etc. I just don't think we look out for one another as much as we should and unfortunately this can be the end result.
THAT SAID, I am in no way shape or form condoning a damn thing and I honestly wanted to kill him myself at one point.
I'm just questioning "why" like everyone else.
It disgusts me(and I assume the victim's families) that people are searching for excuses/reasons that this happened.
It happened because one evil person planned and pulled off mass murder.
As Faux so eloquently put it in the Imus thread, there is no defending this dude.
Just wondering if anyone else is seeing local stories like this?
I have been at work and all day images of dude with a gun to his head have been popping up on my sidebar news flashes. Sucks.... really nagl in my opinion
I like you Roc, but one thing I don't agree with is seeing everything in black and white.
I'm not defending ANYTHING. At all. But there were obviously other factors at work here.
Like I said, I'm just trying to wrap my head around this shit.
brilliant. lets just forget it happened and chalk it up as the evil deeds of an evil person. science, sociology and psychology are a waste of time. evil people and good people. there you have it. case closed.
Dude either couldn't get laid, had no friends, either by choice or a result of him being anti-social. Hated the world, hated himself and thought this would be a way people would pay attention to him and he would have the last word.
Why do you have to "wrap your head" around everything.....if everything in your life is gray, you'll never find the answer to any of your questions.
He was a bad guy......period.
But..but...but...WHY was he a bad guy, we have to figure it out and try to uuunnnddderstand him.
NO WE DON'T.
We need to figure out why the people who KNEW or suspected he was a bad guy didn't do anything about it.
But dude was smart and coherent enough to put together a doctrine, make videos, and do exactly what he set out to do long ago.
I'm just glad he's dead and can't do anymore harm.
Science, sociology and psychology has been working on this a long time.
Since the problem is apparently worse today then say 50 years ago I give them all failing marks.
I don't think that's what Rock was meaning. I think that seeing his video (I was only able to stomach about 25 seconds) showed me a person who was hopelessly maladjusted and who probably stumped casual aquaintances and family in the same way: what do you do with someone so angry who shows such little empathy/understanding of the world? To try and find 'meaning' in his actions or assume that we are somehow going to unlock the mystery and prevent these kind of tragedies in the future is just wishful thinking.
And Drew, I would not place any of the blame for this tragedy at his parents doorstep without all the facts. People make thier own choices and suffer from their own demons/problems regardless. I agree with Rock that the blame belongs on one pathetic, fucked-up guy.
This is the toughest question to answer from all this. Not the why, but what do you do with a guy with this many warning signs? I work in a university & encounter kids every day that are crying for help. The level of indiference on the part of such institutions is amazing, though.
nothing i've read says that people thought he was a bad guy. creepy, weird, strange, quiet are the most common words i've come across to describe him, but from what i can tell nobody thought that he was a bad person and a threat to the public.
While I was not in Blacksburg (I work at a satellite campus) it is very tense here in Northern VA, as many students killed were from this area, including a co-workers daughter.
I dont have much to contribute to this conversation other than I think its wise for one to wait a bit and think before you drop any strong opinions. We all heal and cope differently; some vent, some debate, some keep quiet. Just do not loose a friend in the aftermath of this.
Anyone who has had a family member with mental illness knows that commitment is near impossible.
The school not only offers counseling, but refered him to counseling. His parents had him commited (briefly). Many teachers and students had voiced their concerns.
The way the laws (which vary state to state) are today if you do not threaten or harm someone or yourself there is almost no way a person like that can be arrested or commited.
The phrase is 'a threat to themselves or others'. Clearly he was a threat to others. But proving that when he made no threats and harmed no one is next to impossible.
Perhaps laws will now be changed to allow concerned family to have someone commited.
Let me be clear, the family knew he was sick. His counsolers knew he was sick. His school knew he was sick. The police knew he was sick. His classmates knew he was sick. The doctors at the place where he was commited knew he was sick. But he was allowed to go free because in our socitey adults are allowed to be refuse treatment.
The rea$on for thi$ is no one want$ to pay to treat the mentally ill. The mentally ill don't want treatment because... They are mentally ill.
Radical changes to our mental health system would do much more than the tightening or losening of gun laws.
He was not evil, he was sick. He was not failed by his parents, he was failed by us.
Thank you for that. Sorry for your lose.
Rockadelic and everyone else saying, "It's good he's dead". Do you honestly believe that?
If EVERYONE knew that he was psychologically unstable, why didn't ANYONE fully commit themselves to helping him out of his deep deep hole.
This is another example from similar cases like this all over the world. There have been many cases in Japan, where small kids stab their teachers "out of the blue". Parents killing their children. Children killing their parents. etcetera etcetera. And this is just in Japan.
I believe it's in everyone's interest to atleast raise the awareness of society's shortcomings and needs of people. Overachievers and Winners are everything in society. Much is overlooked.
There ain't no such thing as utopia, but we can atleast try.
School shootings are notably DOWN from their height in the early '90s.
A lot of things have changed since 50 years ago. The increased number of guns in American society, per capita, for example.
Not sure if "evil" is higher or lower than the past though.
I respect the fact that you prefer a simpler explanation for "why bad shit happens" but "evil" is actually a defeatist attitude to take since inherent to the concept of "evil" is the idea that it can't be changed.
Also, "doing evil" and "being evil" are different animals. I'm not even sure how you can prove the latter except by examining the former. However, as humans, we've all done evil things at some point or another but I doubt that means we're all evil people.
Says the "chicken vs. the egg" guy.
Mike - the two things you're citing are apples and oranges.
(Feel to free to work in a "horse/cart" analogy here).
What comes first, the chicken or the egg?
What comes first, being evil or doing evil?
I might have misinterpreted your point (probably did). And anyway, I'm just razzing you.
For me, dude is to be treated like a pedophile. I DON'T want to help a pedophile, i don't wanna know why he did it, how he did it. He can surely rot in hell or die in a prison, i could care less. I keep my feelings and emotions for valid cause. Not insane shit. That Korean dude, even if you manage to control the whole American population, he would still exist. It's that ONE dude that you can't see coming...It's senseless to try to fell guilty arguing about how could it be avoided. It just can't. Americans shouldn't feel guilty about guns, hiphop or whatsoever. It's just him, a random korean dude.
Relative to the population, it is ONE dude. But please read my post from the previous page.
The "school shooting" was virtually unheard of until the late 80's....you know that MANY of the school shootings we have had were by children that HAD been treated by our psychiatric community.
Dispensing drugs like candy, turning children into mind numbed zombies. Factions blame the drugs themselves, while others blame the fact that they stopped taking their drugs.
Just the fact the the VT dude mentions the Columbine killers tells me he had a role model, a plan and the mind to go to great extremes to make his plan work.
Our society doesn't LIKE to hold individuals responsible for their actions(Unless it's some moronic racist).
We feel that as humans, we are so intellectual that we MUST be able to figure out the anwser to everything, there just HAS to be a reason beyond....the guy is a bad human.
I believe there are lots of bad humans.
I believe they all took their own special paths getting there.
Those who commit crimes, whether it be rape, robbery or murder, all have reasons that CAUSED them to do it.
Quite frankly, I'm not interested in what caused them to do it.
Every human only has one person to blame for their actions.
Not society, not the guy who molested them, not the poverty they were born into.
The person they see when they look in the mirror.
And as long as we keep rationalizing their actions by placing blame elsewhere, it's not gonna slow down.
Let me ask everyone who viewed this VT dude's video one question.
Did HE know what he was doing was wrong??