So, folks should think what they'd like about guns. I'd just prefer it if the issues were discussed without tossing around "Constitutional rights" because those rights are long overdue for a review.
There are a lot of things we might 'prefer', but in the case of guns in America, Constitutional Rights are at the heart of the matter, plain and simple.
I doubt you would prefer the direction a review of Constitutional Rights would go right about now.
I'd slightly disagree with this. I don't think, at this point, people hold onto their guns simply b/c it's their right to do so. Guns are part of American social life and fill in a variety of purposes - some practical, some purely symbolic - and in a society infused with a heavy dose of good ol' fashioned Christian fear, racial paranoia, class envy, masculine posturing, etc. - guns have become a powerfully simple "solution" to any number of anxieties.
This all said, I think that incredibly strict gun control laws would work over the long term, at least in specific cities or states, but there isn't the political will or consensus to make that possible right now. And ironically, most gun control advocates push their agenda by also playing on people's fears but the blowback from that is for a large segment of the population, the way to deal with that fear is to arm yourself - not de-arm everyone else.
I am not saying the reason 'people hold onto their guns' is because of the Second Amendment, I am saying it is at the heart of the argument when it comes to completely getting rid of them or even implementing 'incredibly strict gun control laws'. The reason for the culture surrounding them, as you imply, is quite complex and probably not going to shift on one horrific incident, nor probably anytime soon.
I appreciate people's point of view when it comes to their reaction to gun viloence, but to think you can stuff that genie back in it's bottle in the US now, it just seems like wishful, childish naivete. And to use this tragedy to push either agenda is simply misguided, IMO. The people claiming that a student carrying a weapon could have changed the course of this are being just as childishly wishful and naive, maybe more so.
That is so absurdly vague! You need to be more concrete to be at all convincing. A militia lead by whom? Made up of what people? To do what?
If people really had the stomach for change they'd work with the system (i.e. impeachment and maybe voting once in a while) before they turned to killing brothers and sisters under the provisions of the second amendment.
200 million hand guns in circulation 350 million people a violent gun/war obsessed nation reaps the strange fruit of which it has sown it is a natural karmic reflex wave that is unstoppable funny [not]how it predictably manifests one more reason to live in europe or pantagonia
part of the tragedy is that the shooter appears to have been id'd as a dangerous nutty fruitcake in the past & little if anything was done by the school (i'm sure his family ignored a few signs too)
That is so absurdly vague! You need to be more concrete to be at all convincing. A militia lead by whom? Made up of what people? To do what?
If people really had the stomach for change they'd work with the system (i.e. impeachment and maybe voting once in a while) before they turned to killing brothers and sisters under the provisions of the second amendment.
Is this oversimplification really helping people 'change the system'? How many people get into positions of authority in the US government and start to really understand how few people really want change? And how do you serve the will of the people if the change you want is against their will? I would be willing to bet that far more people who have guns vote regularly than those who do not, and I am a lifelong non-gunowner voter.
The militia is a moot point since I am pretty certain that under the Patriot Act, any kind of conspiracy to form a group whose objective would be to 'protect' itself against the US Government would be treated as an official act of terrorism and dealt with.
The right to bear arms to keep a regulated militia is another.
I do believe you're conflating "militia" with "professional standing army." As matters stand now, there really aren't any major militia groups. There hasn't been a need for them in quite some time.
But the people must reserve the right to form and arm such a militia, should they become neccesary again. Imagine if Congress continued to pass Patriot Act-style legislation and continued to abridge and even obliterate personal freedoms in this country. Do you think we'd need a militia eventually?
i think each states "national guard" unit fills this niche
Again, that is a governmentally regulated unit. I'm not talking state secession here, where it would be states v. the federal government - more of the peoples' right to band together under no aegis but their own to assert their right to self-governance. The_Non hit it right on the head with his quote from the Declaration of Independence. Again, I urge one and all to give it a read.
part of the tragedy is that the shooter appears to have been id'd as a dangerous nutty fruitcake in the past & little if anything was done by the school (i'm sure his family ignored a few signs too)
I watched his teacher discuss this, and what can anyone do until a threat is made or acted upon? He hadn't broken any rules or laws, I am pretty sure his background would have checked clean (if that was even needed in VA to get his weapons) and he kept it all bottled in from all accounts. I saw the reporter ask the teacher why his parents weren't told, and she simply explained that due to confidentiality, they can't tell an adult's parents/family anything without their permission (which is only right). Outside of having him committed (which there is no evidence prior that he would have met any criteria for forced institutionalization that I am aware of), what could anyone have done? Kick him out of school I guess, but people come back all the time to the places that have wronged them and exact revenge. I just don't see how this could have been prevented before that day.
"About the National Guard The National Guard, the oldest component of the Armed Forces of the United States and one of the nation's longest-enduring institutions, traces its history back to the earliest English colonies in North America. Responsible for their own defense, the colonists drew on English military tradition and organized their able-bodied male citizens into militias."
yes it has evolved into something else, but the founding fathers wrote a document that had stronger state rights & the mega-giant federal goverment of today could not have be imagined in their time
& now the stories of threats. stalking, arrests, victims pressured not to press charges are coming out concerning the shooter some dating back several years
That is so absurdly vague! You need to be more concrete to be at all convincing. A militia lead by whom? Made up of what people? To do what?
If people really had the stomach for change they'd work with the system (i.e. impeachment and maybe voting once in a while) before they turned to killing brothers and sisters under the provisions of the second amendment.
I vote, and I think impeachment would certainly have been considered before armed insurrection became a viable option.
I'm saying that the incorporation of a militia is the option of last resort. And led by whom? Made up of what people? To do what? Led by whomever the people determine. In true democratic fashion. Made up of those who desire to take revolutionary action. To overthrow the current regime.
Too vague still? Of course. This is a hypothetical situation. It is unneccesary to create a miltia in the current state of affairs, so pointing to current examplars of who would lead the militia, who would comprise it, and what specific actions they would take would be inherently ridiculous.
its that nice looking dork in the back of the room you prolly made fun of in high school...
Maybe this is the behavior we can start to change in this world. Not that hard to simply accept people a little, and a little goes a long way. Just a thought.
& now the stories of threats. stalking, arrests, victims pressured not to press charges are coming out concerning the shooter some dating back several years
That shit could be bad for the powers that be at VT
The militia is a moot point since I am pretty certain that under the Patriot Act, any kind of conspiracy to form a group whose objective would be to 'protect' itself against the US Government would be treated as an official act of terrorism and dealt with.
This is what I'm thinking as I'm reading what I believe to be defenses of our right to form a militia. I mean, who are you trying to kid? Hell ... you can't bring a puppet to a protest without being arrested these days. How far do you think you'll get with a gun (or small army)?
I'm not arguing that those rights should be stripped away ... but with the Patriot Act in place they have been stripped away. Any sort of organization that is against the interests of the US Government is subject to arrest. Where does that leave anyone that wants change? (obviously voting, impeachment, etc are still avenues, of course)
The militia is a moot point since I am pretty certain that under the Patriot Act, any kind of conspiracy to form a group whose objective would be to 'protect' itself against the US Government would be treated as an official act of terrorism and dealt with.
This is what I'm thinking as I'm reading what I believe to be defenses of our right to form a militia. I mean, who are you trying to kid? Hell ... you can't bring a puppet to a protest without being arrested these days. How far do you think you'll get with a gun (or small army)?
I'm not arguing that those rights should be stripped away ... but with the Patriot Act in place they have been stripped away. Any sort of organization that is against the interests of the US Government is subject to arrest. Where does that leave anyone that wants change?
Probably voting Democrat and maintaining low expectations. Or putting effort into grassroots, local politics where things have a more measurable impact. Unfortunately, shortly after 9-11, our leaders sold us out in the US, predicating that failure on the idea that citizens would rather be 'safe' than have our rights and liberties protected. Left us average citizens in quite a bind to unravel out of.
The militia is a moot point since I am pretty certain that under the Patriot Act, any kind of conspiracy to form a group whose objective would be to 'protect' itself against the US Government would be treated as an official act of terrorism and dealt with.
This is what I'm thinking as I'm reading what I believe to be defenses of our right to form a militia. I mean, who are you trying to kid? Hell ... you can't bring a puppet to a protest without being arrested these days. How far do you think you'll get with a gun (or small army)?
I'm not arguing that those rights should be stripped away ... but with the Patriot Act in place they have been stripped away. Any sort of organization that is against the interests of the US Government is subject to arrest. Where does that leave anyone that wants change?
Again, a militia is an option of last resort. Meaning all attempts at working within the political system have failed, and all non-violent efforts have failed as well. For armed insurrection to be the only option left, the situation would have to have become so oppressive that the majority of Americans would be in favor of it.
How does that change things? The soldier, the police officer, the FBI agent, the Homeland Security official - these people are American citizens too. I'm not talking about a couple dozen people stockpiling weapons in a South Dakota barn. I'm talking about the collective will of the entire country shifting toward the idea of armed insurrection. In which case, the majority of those soldiers, police officers, FBI agents and Homeland Security officials would be in support of insurrection, too.
Anyway, it's been great chopping it up with you all, but I really need to do some work. I'll see you at lunch.
The militia is a moot point since I am pretty certain that under the Patriot Act, any kind of conspiracy to form a group whose objective would be to 'protect' itself against the US Government would be treated as an official act of terrorism and dealt with.
This is what I'm thinking as I'm reading what I believe to be defenses of our right to form a militia. I mean, who are you trying to kid? Hell ... you can't bring a puppet to a protest without being arrested these days. How far do you think you'll get with a gun (or small army)?
I'm not arguing that those rights should be stripped away ... but with the Patriot Act in place they have been stripped away. Any sort of organization that is against the interests of the US Government is subject to arrest. Where does that leave anyone that wants change?
Again, a militia is an option of last resort. Meaning all attempts at working within the political system have failed, and all non-violent efforts have failed as well. For armed insurrection to be the only option left, the situation would have to have become so oppressive that the majority of Americans would be in favor of it.
How does that change things? The soldier, the police officer, the FBI agent, the Homeland Security official - these people are American citizens too. I'm not talking about a couple dozen people stockpiling weapons in a South Dakota barn. I'm talking about the collective will of the entire country shifting toward the idea of armed insurrection. In which case, the majority of those soldiers, police officers, FBI agents and Homeland Security officials would be in support of insurrection, too.
I feel ya. I guess the current administration is banking on it not getting to a point where "the majority of Americans would be in favor" of armed militia. Most folks prefer the status quo a bit too much (including myself ... "what, you mean I can't bring my records?") And, of course, with all of their Homeland Security powers, organizing such a militia (and it would require organization and leadership of some sort) is all but impossible. Alas, we live in some interesting times. Hate to be pessimistic, but, like Birdman said, the situation has "left us average citizens in quite a bind to unravel out of."
I don't know why they air this shit. It's pure exploitation. I can't imagine how infuriating it must be for the family of a victim to see NBC indulge the murderer. The guy is a loony bin; there's no need to give a forum to his ramblings. One photo would suffice; anything more is scandalous. Turning the perpetrator of a mass murder into a celebrity can't be constructive in any sense.
I don't know why they air this shit. It's pure exploitation. I can't imagine how infuriating it must be for the family of a victim to see NBC indulge the murderer. The guy is a loony bin; there's no need to give a forum to his ramblings. One photo would suffice; anything more is scandalous. Turning the perpetrator of a mass murder into a celebrity can't be constructive in any sense.
its that nice looking dork in the back of the room you prolly made fun of in high school...
Maybe this is the behavior we can start to change in this world. Not that hard to simply accept people a little, and a little goes a long way. Just a thought.
I suppose people with this child's mental dissorder feel trapped.. like they are being isolated into some tiny box.... But if he surrounded himself in these violant stories as a way of expressing himself I will have to fault the adminstration for their lack of acting on this obvious issue... After Columbine you would think that universities, and schools would have a department that reaches out to consistancies in violence (or violent stories) like this child's tendancy.
WOW. Double WOW. Jaws drop graemlin. I don't know what to say...Poor families. I pray for them. They won't recover easily with all those pics, vids and mediatic exploitation of the story...Why is that i'm feeling that an anti-rap crusade would start from there? Maybe because some of his picturs lookd like a mixtape cover.
I don't know why they air this shit. It's pure exploitation. I can't imagine how infuriating it must be for the family of a victim to see NBC indulge the murderer. The guy is a loony bin; there's no need to give a forum to his ramblings. One photo would suffice; anything more is scandalous. Turning the perpetrator of a mass murder into a celebrity can't be constructive in any sense.
This is where I have my biggest concern. For all our talk about society and the media and the underlying causes, I think the number one influence on a media/societal level on these events taking place is the amount of exposure given to the perpetrators after the fact. Yes, it would feel wrong and be wrong to just pretend it never happened, but the whole "look inside the mind of a killer" is, in my opinion, a major factor in driving unbalanced people to do this in the first place. They want the attention. They have been ignored, made to feel inconsequential and useless, and so they want to lash out and leave a legacy. "Now everyone will know my name." Shit, the guy sent a press pack to NBC for chrissakes. I think all that shit should be squashed, and very little attention given to the attackers in these situations, to dissuade those who would want to follow in their steps and have what they would perceive as their magnificent moment of death in the spotlight.
its that nice looking dork in the back of the room you prolly made fun of in high school...
Maybe this is the behavior we can start to change in this world. Not that hard to simply accept people a little, and a little goes a long way. Just a thought.
I suppose people with this child's mental dissorder feel trapped.. like they are being isolated into some tiny box.... But if he surrounded himself in these violant stories as a way of expressing himself I will have to fault the adminstration for their lack of acting on this obvious issue... After Columbine you would think that universities, and schools would have a department that reaches out to consistancies in violence (or violent stories) like this child's tendancy.
unless I have missed something, this perpetrator was an ADULT, not a child.
Just don't watch this shit; all joking aside, if you watch this, he gets what he wants. Fuck him; he went into classrooms killing the innocent. I will now exercise my right to turn my back on his misguided and hateful ideas as my final, if not exceedingly, infinitely small act to destroy he who kills.
i will also ignore the networks who air this ... again, why give the killer what he wants? send it to the FBI, and let it die with the bullet through his head.
This is where I have my biggest concern. For all our talk about society and the media and the underlying causes, I think the number one influence on a media/societal level on these events taking place is the amount of exposure given to the perpetrators after the fact. Yes, it would feel wrong and be wrong to just pretend it never happened, but the whole "look inside the mind of a killer" is, in my opinion, a major factor in driving unbalanced people to do this in the first place. They want the attention. They have been ignored, made to feel inconsequential and useless, and so they want to lash out and leave a legacy. "Now everyone will know my name." Shit, the guy sent a press pack to NBC for chrissakes. I think all that shit should be squashed, and very little attention given to the attackers in these situations, to dissuade those who would want to follow in their steps and have what they would perceive as their magnificent moment of death in the spotlight.
Massive
It couldn't be more black and white. The guy sent a media package directly to NBC. This is unprecedented ... a pre-packaged media blitz-out straight from the killer. Feeding into this is only going to invite more of this phenomenon. Kenneth Eng types could come out of the woodwork (some of them dangerous ... who knows, maybe Eng is actually dangerous).
I admit to being lulled in by the morbid curiosity myself. It is very difficult to resist once it's out there and so easy to consume.
This is ugly and it is unfortunate, though completely predictable, that the media are chomping at the bit to the extent that they are. This guy does not deserve to have his final request granted.
Comments
I am not saying the reason 'people hold onto their guns' is because of the Second Amendment, I am saying it is at the heart of the argument when it comes to completely getting rid of them or even implementing 'incredibly strict gun control laws'. The reason for the culture surrounding them, as you imply, is quite complex and probably not going to shift on one horrific incident, nor probably anytime soon.
I appreciate people's point of view when it comes to their reaction to gun viloence, but to think you can stuff that genie back in it's bottle in the US now, it just seems like wishful, childish naivete. And to use this tragedy to push either agenda is simply misguided, IMO. The people claiming that a student carrying a weapon could have changed the course of this are being just as childishly wishful and naive, maybe more so.
That is so absurdly vague! You need to be more concrete to be at all convincing. A militia lead by whom? Made up of what people? To do what?
If people really had the stomach for change they'd work with the system (i.e. impeachment and maybe voting once in a while) before they turned to killing brothers and sisters under the provisions of the second amendment.
rip/condolences to all the dead and their fams
200 million hand guns in circulation
350 million people
a violent gun/war obsessed nation reaps the strange fruit of which it has sown
it is a natural karmic reflex wave that is unstoppable
funny [not]how it predictably manifests
one more reason to live in europe or pantagonia
appears to have been id'd as a dangerous nutty fruitcake
in the past
& little if anything was done by the school
(i'm sure his family ignored a few signs too)
Is this oversimplification really helping people 'change the system'? How many people get into positions of authority in the US government and start to really understand how few people really want change? And how do you serve the will of the people if the change you want is against their will? I would be willing to bet that far more people who have guns vote regularly than those who do not, and I am a lifelong non-gunowner voter.
The militia is a moot point since I am pretty certain that under the Patriot Act, any kind of conspiracy to form a group whose objective would be to 'protect' itself against the US Government would be treated as an official act of terrorism and dealt with.
Again, that is a governmentally regulated unit. I'm not talking state secession here, where it would be states v. the federal government - more of the peoples' right to band together under no aegis but their own to assert their right to self-governance. The_Non hit it right on the head with his quote from the Declaration of Independence. Again, I urge one and all to give it a read.
I watched his teacher discuss this, and what can anyone do until a threat is made or acted upon? He hadn't broken any rules or laws, I am pretty sure his background would have checked clean (if that was even needed in VA to get his weapons) and he kept it all bottled in from all accounts. I saw the reporter ask the teacher why his parents weren't told, and she simply explained that due to confidentiality, they can't tell an adult's parents/family anything without their permission (which is only right). Outside of having him committed (which there is no evidence prior that he would have met any criteria for forced institutionalization that I am aware of), what could anyone have done? Kick him out of school I guess, but people come back all the time to the places that have wronged them and exact revenge. I just don't see how this could have been prevented before that day.
The National Guard, the oldest component of the Armed Forces of the United States
and one of the nation's longest-enduring institutions,
traces its history back to the earliest English colonies in North America.
Responsible for their own defense, the colonists drew on
English military tradition and organized their able-bodied male citizens into militias."
yes it has evolved into something else,
but the founding fathers wrote a document
that had stronger state rights & the mega-giant federal goverment of today
could not have be imagined in their time
& now the stories of threats. stalking, arrests, victims pressured not to press charges
are coming out
concerning the shooter
some dating back several years
I vote, and I think impeachment would certainly have been considered before armed insurrection became a viable option.
I'm saying that the incorporation of a militia is the option of last resort. And led by whom? Made up of what people? To do what? Led by whomever the people determine. In true democratic fashion. Made up of those who desire to take revolutionary action. To overthrow the current regime.
Too vague still? Of course. This is a hypothetical situation. It is unneccesary to create a miltia in the current state of affairs, so pointing to current examplars of who would lead the militia, who would comprise it, and what specific actions they would take would be inherently ridiculous.
Maybe this is the behavior we can start to change in this world. Not that hard to simply accept people a little, and a little goes a long way. Just a thought.
That shit could be bad for the powers that be at VT
This is what I'm thinking as I'm reading what I believe to be defenses of our right to form a militia. I mean, who are you trying to kid? Hell ... you can't bring a puppet to a protest without being arrested these days. How far do you think you'll get with a gun (or small army)?
I'm not arguing that those rights should be stripped away ... but with the Patriot Act in place they have been stripped away. Any sort of organization that is against the interests of the US Government is subject to arrest. Where does that leave anyone that wants change? (obviously voting, impeachment, etc are still avenues, of course)
Probably voting Democrat and maintaining low expectations. Or putting effort into grassroots, local politics where things have a more measurable impact. Unfortunately, shortly after 9-11, our leaders sold us out in the US, predicating that failure on the idea that citizens would rather be 'safe' than have our rights and liberties protected. Left us average citizens in quite a bind to unravel out of.
Again, a militia is an option of last resort. Meaning all attempts at working within the political system have failed, and all non-violent efforts have failed as well. For armed insurrection to be the only option left, the situation would have to have become so oppressive that the majority of Americans would be in favor of it.
How does that change things? The soldier, the police officer, the FBI agent, the Homeland Security official - these people are American citizens too. I'm not talking about a couple dozen people stockpiling weapons in a South Dakota barn. I'm talking about the collective will of the entire country shifting toward the idea of armed insurrection. In which case, the majority of those soldiers, police officers, FBI agents and Homeland Security officials would be in support of insurrection, too.
Anyway, it's been great chopping it up with you all, but I really need to do some work. I'll see you at lunch.
I feel ya. I guess the current administration is banking on it not getting to a point where "the majority of Americans would be in favor" of armed militia. Most folks prefer the status quo a bit too much (including myself ... "what, you mean I can't bring my records?") And, of course, with all of their Homeland Security powers, organizing such a militia (and it would require organization and leadership of some sort) is all but impossible. Alas, we live in some interesting times. Hate to be pessimistic, but, like Birdman said, the situation has "left us average citizens in quite a bind to unravel out of."
Apparently he sent a package to NBC. Jesus.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776/
My thoughts exactly.
Meanwhile...in other parts of the world...
I suppose people with this child's mental dissorder feel trapped.. like they are being isolated into some tiny box.... But if he surrounded himself in these violant stories as a way of expressing himself I will have to fault the adminstration for their lack of acting on this obvious issue... After Columbine you would think that universities, and schools would have a department that reaches out to consistancies in violence (or violent stories) like this child's tendancy.
This is where I have my biggest concern. For all our talk
about society and the media and the underlying causes, I think
the number one influence on a media/societal level on these
events taking place is the amount of exposure given to the perpetrators
after the fact. Yes, it would feel wrong and be wrong to just pretend it
never happened, but the whole "look inside the mind of a killer" is, in
my opinion, a major factor in driving unbalanced people to do this
in the first place. They want the attention. They have been ignored,
made to feel inconsequential and useless, and so they want to lash out
and leave a legacy. "Now everyone will know my name."
Shit, the guy sent a press pack to NBC for chrissakes. I think
all that shit should be squashed, and very little attention given
to the attackers in these situations, to dissuade those who would
want to follow in their steps and have what they would perceive as
their magnificent moment of death in the spotlight.
unless I have missed something, this perpetrator was an ADULT, not a child.
Just don't watch this shit; all joking aside, if you watch this, he gets what he wants. Fuck him; he went into classrooms killing the innocent. I will now exercise my right to turn my back on his misguided and hateful ideas as my final, if not exceedingly, infinitely small act to destroy he who kills.
i will also ignore the networks who air this ... again, why give the killer what he wants? send it to the FBI, and let it die with the bullet through his head.
Massive
It couldn't be more black and white. The guy sent a media package directly to NBC. This is unprecedented ... a pre-packaged media blitz-out straight from the killer. Feeding into this is only going to invite more of this phenomenon. Kenneth Eng types could come out of the woodwork (some of them dangerous ... who knows, maybe Eng is actually dangerous).
I admit to being lulled in by the morbid curiosity myself. It is very difficult to resist once it's out there and so easy to consume.
This is ugly and it is unfortunate, though completely predictable, that the media are chomping at the bit to the extent that they are. This guy does not deserve to have his final request granted.
of earthly justice to be imposed - why grant
the bastard his last request on top of it all?
It makes no sense to me.
Our need to know and see everything is a dangerous thing.
someone want to try to explain what he is talking about in this video? I have not been following the story...
now they're talking about Old Boy.