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jazz-fusion (roots, records, race)

leisurebanditleisurebandit 1,006 Posts
edited March 2007 in Strut Central
So "jazz-fusion" is most-typically painted as the marriage of "jazz" and "rock" right? And rock, despite its origins in blues and R&B music, is most-typically painted as a style of music purveyed by Whites.Although we can now point to earlier examples, the initial "shot heard round the world" with regards to fusion music is Miles Davis Bitches BrewIn his autobiography, Miles clearly states that in 1968 he was primarily listening to James Brown, Sly Stone, and Jimi Hendrix (p292). We can infer that these influences provided a large part of Miles' inspiration for his Bitches Brew period.So although 'jazz-rock fusion' implies the integration of White influence (i.e. rock), it is clear that the initial impetus for fusion, as exemplified by Bitches Brew, was other forms of Black music, i.e. funk, soul, and blues. (It can be argued that Hendrix, while Black, was part of the White rock music industry, but considering his upbringing and experience, I think it's easy and most incisive to conceptualize him within the lineage of African-American music.)Thoughts?I know this is probably not an original idea on my part, but it's something i've been thinking about. I'm interested to hear what the resident Soul-Strut experts think. Is this a tenable argument?

  Comments

  • PATXPATX 2,820 Posts
    What about Brown people?
  • TREWTREW 2,037 Posts
    So "jazz-fusion" is most-typically painted as the marriage of "jazz" and "rock" right? And rock, despite its origins in blues and R&B music, is most-typically painted as a style of music purveyed by Whites.

    Although we can now point to earlier examples, the initial "shot heard round the world" with regards to fusion music is Miles Davis Bitches Brew

    In his autobiography, Miles clearly states that in 1968 he was primarily listening to James Brown, Sly Stone, and Jimi Hendrix (p292). We can infer that these influences provided a large part of Miles' inspiration for his Bitches Brew period.

    So although 'jazz-rock fusion' implies the integration of White influence (i.e. rock), it is clear that the initial impetus for fusion, as exemplified by Bitches Brew, was other forms of Black music, i.e. funk, soul, and blues. (It can be argued that Hendrix, while Black, was part of the White rock music industry, but considering his upbringing and experience, I think it's easy and most incisive to conceptualize him within the lineage of African-American music.)

    Thoughts?
    I know this is probably not an original idea on my part, but it's something i've been thinking about. I'm interested to hear what the resident Soul-Strut experts think. Is this a tenable argument?

    so what is you underlying question? i'm having a hard time deciphering your post, bear w/ me.. is it that you think jazz fusion was a funk influenced genre? as opposed to rock influenced? if so, i'd have to agree. if anything i think classic rock was more influenced by jazz than vice versa.
  • GenePontecorvoGenePontecorvo 5,612 Posts
    I don't know bout the race angles but I've been listening to MorseCode's "Fusion, Batches" (late pass) all damn week and that shit kicks ass.
  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    So "jazz-fusion" is most-typically painted as the marriage of "jazz" and "rock" right? And rock, despite its origins in blues and R&B music, is most-typically painted as a style of music purveyed by Whites.

  • FatbackFatback 6,746 Posts
    So "jazz-fusion" is most-typically painted as the marriage of "jazz" and "rock" right? And rock, despite its origins in blues and R&B music, is most-typically painted as a style of music purveyed by Whites.

    Although we can now point to earlier examples, the initial "shot heard round the world" with regards to fusion music is Miles Davis Bitches Brew

    In his autobiography, Miles clearly states that in 1968 he was primarily listening to James Brown, Sly Stone, and Jimi Hendrix (p292). We can infer that these influences provided a large part of Miles' inspiration for his Bitches Brew period.

    So although 'jazz-rock fusion' implies the integration of White influence (i.e. rock), it is clear that the initial impetus for fusion, as exemplified by Bitches Brew, was other forms of Black music, i.e. funk, soul, and blues. (It can be argued that Hendrix, while Black, was part of the White rock music industry, but considering his upbringing and experience, I think it's easy and most incisive to conceptualize him within the lineage of African-American music.)

    Thoughts?
    I know this is probably not an original idea on my part, but it's something i've been thinking about. I'm interested to hear what the resident Soul-Strut experts think. Is this a tenable argument?

    what you're pointing out is the problem with the term "jazz-fusion". it was nothing but a term coined by some white Downbeat critics and then used by record companies to sell (sometimes resell) their waining jazz catalogs to white boomer hippies. there goes your "race" part. but that has nothing to do with the music itself.

    the term jazz fusion does not mean anything. it's bullschit. you can talk about it all day, but it's like the term "alternative". it needs some qualification "alternative" to what? "fused" with what?

  • leisurebanditleisurebandit 1,006 Posts


    so what is you underlying question? i'm having a hard time deciphering your post, bear w/ me.. is it that you think jazz fusion was a funk influenced genre? as opposed to rock influenced? if so, i'd have to agree. if anything i think classic rock was more influenced by jazz than vice versa.

    i guess the question is: do you agree that to call the music "jazz-rock fusion" implies a fundamental contribution from music typically considered 'White' (i.e. rock), when in fact the fundamental contributions outside of jazz came from music typically considered 'Black'

    (sorry if that doesn't really clear it up )

    what you're pointing out is the problem with the term "jazz-fusion". it was nothing but a term coined by some white Downbeat critics and then used by record companies to sell (sometimes resell) their waining jazz catalogs to white boomer hippies. there goes your "race" part. but that has nothing to do with the music itself.

    the term jazz fusion does not mean anything. it's bullschit. you can talk about it all day, but it's like the term "alternative". it needs some qualification "alternative" to what? "fused" with what?

    i agree Fatback. in fact, i feel more or less the same way about all genre category terms. I guess my main issue is that calling it "jazz-rock" over the years has overplayed the original influence of rock while obscuring the primary influences of 'Black' music like soul, funk, and blues.

    thanks for helping me think thru this guys
  • captainplanetcaptainplanet 626 Posts
    What about Brown people?

    fusion was fuse-ing with lots of things. latin, indian, brazilian...

    miles incorporated tablas, congas... the thing that's kinda silly to me, is that at that period in time, music in all genres was fuse-ing, that's what made it so damn good.
  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    i agree Fatback. in fact, i feel more or less the same way about all genre category terms. I guess my main issue is that calling it "jazz-rock" over the years has overplayed the original influence of rock while obscuring the primary influences of 'Black' music like soul, funk, and blues.

    So u have Rock as caucasoid and Soul/Funk/Blues as Black?
  • PATXPATX 2,820 Posts
    i agree Fatback. in fact, i feel more or less the same way about all genre category terms. I guess my main issue is that calling it "jazz-rock" over the years has overplayed the original influence of rock while obscuring the primary influences of 'Black' music like soul, funk, and blues.

    So u have Rock as caucasoid and Soul/Funk/Blues as Black?

    That's Americanist!
  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    i agree Fatback. in fact, i feel more or less the same way about all genre category terms. I guess my main issue is that calling it "jazz-rock" over the years has overplayed the original influence of rock while obscuring the primary influences of 'Black' music like soul, funk, and blues.

    So u have Rock as caucasoid and Soul/Funk/Blues as Black?

    That's Americanist!

    Rock/Soul/Blues/Funk came from where?
  • PATXPATX 2,820 Posts
    i agree Fatback. in fact, i feel more or less the same way about all genre category terms. I guess my main issue is that calling it "jazz-rock" over the years has overplayed the original influence of rock while obscuring the primary influences of 'Black' music like soul, funk, and blues.

    So u have Rock as caucasoid and Soul/Funk/Blues as Black?

    That's Americanist!

    Rock/Soul/Blues/Funk came from where?

    I'm talking about the black/white dichotomy. I also think Jazz heads can be mad insular.
  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    i agree Fatback. in fact, i feel more or less the same way about all genre category terms. I guess my main issue is that calling it "jazz-rock" over the years has overplayed the original influence of rock while obscuring the primary influences of 'Black' music like soul, funk, and blues.

    So u have Rock as caucasoid and Soul/Funk/Blues as Black?

    That's Americanist!

    Rock/Soul/Blues/Funk came from where?

    I'm talking about the black/white dichotomy. I also think Jazz heads can be mad insular.

    He took it there, so im just askin'.
  • leisurebanditleisurebandit 1,006 Posts
    i agree Fatback. in fact, i feel more or less the same way about all genre category terms. I guess my main issue is that calling it "jazz-rock" over the years has overplayed the original influence of rock while obscuring the primary influences of 'Black' music like soul, funk, and blues.

    So u have Rock as caucasoid and Soul/Funk/Blues as Black?

    not so much that I have it that way, more like the general public has it that way. hence the quotes around 'black' and 'white' and also the reason why I qualified the concept of 'rock' being 'white' in my original post
  • Ian_DIan_D 120 Posts
    it's all just jazz call it what ever you want it's just jazz, like funk it's just the funk, miles was interested in the raw roots of the music he was listening to which is jazz/blues yoaming....i think you're getting confused with country music that's mostly purveyed by Whites, that and beating up black people for no reason.
  • FatbackFatback 6,746 Posts
    i agree Fatback. in fact, i feel more or less the same way about all genre category terms. I guess my main issue is that calling it "jazz-rock" over the years has overplayed the original influence of rock while obscuring the primary influences of 'Black' music like soul, funk, and blues.

    So u have Rock as caucasoid and Soul/Funk/Blues as Black?

    That's Americanist!

    Rock/Soul/Blues/Funk came from where?

    I'm talking about the black/white dichotomy. I also think Jazz heads can be mad insular.

    You sound Blue Noteless.
  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    i agree Fatback. in fact, i feel more or less the same way about all genre category terms. I guess my main issue is that calling it "jazz-rock" over the years has overplayed the original influence of rock while obscuring the primary influences of 'Black' music like soul, funk, and blues.

    So u have Rock as caucasoid and Soul/Funk/Blues as Black?

    not so much that I have it that way, more like the general public has it that way. hence the quotes around 'black' and 'white' and also the reason why I qualified the concept of 'rock' being 'white' in my original post

    Well shouldnt u question WHY the "general public" catagorizes these terms and maybe that will lead to the overall misunderstanding/mislabelling?
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    I'm not really sure if the original idea being batted around here isn't a strawman argument.

    By the time you get around to jazz in the late '60s and into the '70s, the idea of jazz = black has been, in my opinion, made less relevant especially in light to the rise of R&B and soul. It's not that jazz has NO racial connotations but I also don't think cool jazz or bop was seen on this Blacker-than-Black tip by this point in time.

    Moreover, I've personally never thought of fusion as being reflective of a simple Black + White equation. I could be wrong, but did people in that era listen to Weather Report and say, "damn, this shit sure sounds a lot whiter than when Monk and Trane were up at Minton's"? To me, the bigger controversy was simply the difference in sound (at least if you're a jazz traditionalist) rather than the racial politics of it all. After all, I'm assuming the same people who didn't like the jazz-meets-rock sound wasn't all that hot on jazz-meets-soul (i.e. all those Prestige albums Faux loves) movement either.
  • JimsterJimster Cruffiton.etsy.com 6,955 Posts
    I was watching a documentary on BBC about Miles' appearance at the Isle of Wight in 1970. All the band (James Mtume, Jack De Johnette, Dave Holland, Gary Bartz, Airto, Keith Jarrett, Herbie) were interviewed individually in 2006 about their role and what it was like to hang with Miles at the time.

    The big influence on Miles going in this direction seems to have been his woman Betty. She seemed to have gotten Miles into a more socially-conscious stance, a hipper way of dressing and of course into the music of Sly and his contemporaries.

    The biggest critical hurdle was not the "whitening" of the sound, but more the use of electric instruments. Even members of the band were originally dead against it, and of course the jazz critics were doing Linda Blair impressions. But Miles heard it and got it down. There were no "Rock" guys involved in making the music, just the flip to eleccy to get your head around.

    The documentary finished with showing the film of the piece they performed at the gig; a 37-minute workout which a few years ago I would have given the finger-crucifix but was pretty interesting to hear now and after immediately hearing the story behind it.
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    Yeah, I was going to add this point but it didn't seem necessarily as relevant but Miles' entry into the world of rock was largely through his then-wife Betty Davis who was friends with Jimi and, in general, moved through that world much more comfortably than Miles did. Folks like Santana credit Betty with really making over Miles' image and helped usher him into the "Bitches Brew" phase and beyond.


    I was watching a documentary on BBC about Miles' appearance at the Isle of Wight in 1970. All the band (James Mtume, Jack De Johnette, Dave Holland, Gary Bartz, Airto, Keith Jarrett, Herbie) were interviewed individually in 2006 about their role and what it was like to hang with Miles at the time.

    The big influence on Miles going in this direction seems to have been his woman Betty. She seemed to have gotten Miles into a more socially-conscious stance, a hipper way of dressing and of course into the music of Sly and his contemporaries.

    The biggest critical hurdle was not the "whitening" of the sound, but more the use of electric instruments. Even members of the band were originally dead against it, and of course the jazz critics were doing Linda Blair impressions. But Miles heard it and got it down. There were no "Rock" guys involved in making the music, just the flip to eleccy to get your head around.

    The documentary finished with showing the film of the piece they performed at the gig; a 37-minute workout which a few years ago I would have given the finger-crucifix but was pretty interesting to hear now and after immediately hearing the story behind it.
  • FatbackFatback 6,746 Posts
    I was watching a documentary on BBC about Miles' appearance at the Isle of Wight in 1970. All the band (James Mtume, Jack De Johnette, Dave Holland, Gary Bartz, Airto, Keith Jarrett, Herbie) were interviewed individually in 2006 about their role and what it was like to hang with Miles at the time.

    The big influence on Miles going in this direction seems to have been his woman Betty. She seemed to have gotten Miles into a more socially-conscious stance, a hipper way of dressing and of course into the music of Sly and his contemporaries.

    The biggest critical hurdle was not the "whitening" of the sound, but more the use of electric instruments. Even members of the band were originally dead against it, and of course the jazz critics were doing Linda Blair impressions. But Miles heard it and got it down. There were no "Rock" guys involved in making the music, just the flip to eleccy to get your head around.

    The documentary finished with showing the film of the piece they performed at the gig; a 37-minute workout which a few years ago I would have given the finger-crucifix but was pretty interesting to hear now and after immediately hearing the story behind it.

    I think Miles said it best when was asked to name the tune for that soundtrack...


    "Call it Anything"

    I'd love to see that BBC documentary that you cited.

    I saw that IofW film years ago and remembered enjoying the concert footage tremendously. Especially Joni Mitchell and ELPs progtarded performance with Emerson spinning the organ on its corner and the cannons and shit.
  • yuichiyuichi Urban sprawl 11,332 Posts
    So "jazz-fusion" is most-typically painted as the marriage of "jazz" and "rock" right? And rock, despite its origins in blues and R&B music, is most-typically painted as a style of music purveyed by Whites.

    Although we can now point to earlier examples, the initial "shot heard round the world" with regards to fusion music is Miles Davis Bitches Brew

    In his autobiography, Miles clearly states that in 1968 he was primarily listening to James Brown, Sly Stone, and Jimi Hendrix (p292). We can infer that these influences provided a large part of Miles' inspiration for his Bitches Brew period.

    So although 'jazz-rock fusion' implies the integration of White influence (i.e. rock), it is clear that the initial impetus for fusion, as exemplified by Bitches Brew, was other forms of Black music, i.e. funk, soul, and blues. (It can be argued that Hendrix, while Black, was part of the White rock music industry, but considering his upbringing and experience, I think it's easy and most incisive to conceptualize him within the lineage of African-American music.)

    Thoughts?
    I know this is probably not an original idea on my part, but it's something i've been thinking about. I'm interested to hear what the resident Soul-Strut experts think. Is this a tenable argument?

    I think i've summarized your question. So you are saying, an album like Bitches Brew (jazz-rock-fusion) is all Black in essence right?
  • leisurebanditleisurebandit 1,006 Posts
    So "jazz-fusion" is most-typically painted as the marriage of "jazz" and "rock" right? And rock, despite its origins in blues and R&B music, is most-typically painted as a style of music purveyed by Whites.

    Although we can now point to earlier examples, the initial "shot heard round the world" with regards to fusion music is Miles Davis Bitches Brew

    In his autobiography, Miles clearly states that in 1968 he was primarily listening to James Brown, Sly Stone, and Jimi Hendrix (p292). We can infer that these influences provided a large part of Miles' inspiration for his Bitches Brew period.

    So although 'jazz-rock fusion' implies the integration of White influence (i.e. rock), it is clear that the initial impetus for fusion, as exemplified by Bitches Brew, was other forms of Black music, i.e. funk, soul, and blues. (It can be argued that Hendrix, while Black, was part of the White rock music industry, but considering his upbringing and experience, I think it's easy and most incisive to conceptualize him within the lineage of African-American music.)

    Thoughts?
    I know this is probably not an original idea on my part, but it's something i've been thinking about. I'm interested to hear what the resident Soul-Strut experts think. Is this a tenable argument?

    I think i've summarized your question. So you are saying, an album like Bitches Brew (jazz-rock-fusion) is all Black in essence right?

    yeah i guess that's essentially it, thanks! i guess my issue is that superficial definitions of jazz-rock fusion sometimes overlook the primary importance of other African-American musical forms, cause 'rock,' to many people, implies 'white'.

    (this is of course, with all the caveats about how nothing can really be boiled down to a simple black/white dichotomy etc etc)
  • tripledoubletripledouble 7,636 Posts
    lets not forget that those white boys were banging out some breaks on those drum kits!!!!!



    whats fusioned that?
  • Mad Drama TeacherMad Drama Teacher 1,985 Posts
    To me, the bigger controversy was simply the difference in sound (at least if you're a jazz traditionalist) rather than the racial politics of it all.

    Leave it up to the listener to put a racial spin on this. Do these people even listen to music? Miles didn't care who played with him, so long as he was good. Miles took a lot of flack for hiring Bill Evans. He turned out OK.
  • faux_rillzfaux_rillz 14,343 Posts
    To me, the bigger controversy was simply the difference in sound (at least if you're a jazz traditionalist) rather than the racial politics of it all.

    Leave it up to the listener to put a racial spin on this. Do these people even listen to music? Miles didn't care who played with him, so long as he was good. Miles took a lot of flack for hiring Bill Evans. He turned out OK.

    Damn, I knew the one aaronbobo would be all up in fuzack + race thread getting busy! This must be like catnip to you.
  • nutriciousnutricious 118 Posts
    I was watching a documentary on BBC about Miles' appearance at the Isle of Wight in 1970. All the band (James Mtume, Jack De Johnette, Dave Holland, Gary Bartz, Airto, Keith Jarrett, Herbie) were interviewed individually in 2006 about their role and what it was like to hang with Miles at the time.

    The big influence on Miles going in this direction seems to have been his woman Betty. She seemed to have gotten Miles into a more socially-conscious stance, a hipper way of dressing and of course into the music of Sly and his contemporaries.

    The biggest critical hurdle was not the "whitening" of the sound, but more the use of electric instruments. Even members of the band were originally dead against it, and of course the jazz critics were doing Linda Blair impressions. But Miles heard it and got it down. There were no "Rock" guys involved in making the music, just the flip to eleccy to get your head around.

    The documentary finished with showing the film of the piece they performed at the gig; a 37-minute workout which a few years ago I would have given the finger-crucifix but was pretty interesting to hear now and after immediately hearing the story behind it.

    I think Miles said it best when was asked to name the tune for that soundtrack...


    "Call it Anything"

    I'd love to see that BBC documentary that you cited.

    I saw that IofW film years ago and remembered enjoying the concert footage tremendously. Especially Joni Mitchell and ELPs progtarded performance with Emerson spinning the organ on its corner and the cannons and shit.

    the good folks at earfuzz have put together a couple of youtubes of miles' concert:

    http://www.earfuzz.com/2007/03/call-it-anything.html
  • Rich45sRich45s 327 Posts

    I'd love to see that BBC documentary that you cited.

    I'd imagine it may well be this, so not a BBC doc per se, just bought by them to be shown.

    http://www.amazon.com/Miles-Electric-Different-Kind-Blue/dp/B00069FKN2

    I think I've made mention of this DVD in the past to.
  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    I agree with just about everything said here.

    I think after the labels started marketing music as jazzrockfusion there came a bunch of bands who saw themselves as jazzrockfusion. In other words they were as influenced by the marketers as they were by Miles.

    I think the perhaps the race implications come from the marketers who think if they add the word rock more White people would buy it. I think it worked. I think it also allowed rock artists, like Genisis, Zappa, Santana, Auger to consider their music jazz as in jazzrockmusic. And who am I to say it isn't.
  • yuichiyuichi Urban sprawl 11,332 Posts
    So "jazz-fusion" is most-typically painted as the marriage of "jazz" and "rock" right? And rock, despite its origins in blues and R&B music, is most-typically painted as a style of music purveyed by Whites.

    Although we can now point to earlier examples, the initial "shot heard round the world" with regards to fusion music is Miles Davis Bitches Brew

    In his autobiography, Miles clearly states that in 1968 he was primarily listening to James Brown, Sly Stone, and Jimi Hendrix (p292). We can infer that these influences provided a large part of Miles' inspiration for his Bitches Brew period.

    So although 'jazz-rock fusion' implies the integration of White influence (i.e. rock), it is clear that the initial impetus for fusion, as exemplified by Bitches Brew, was other forms of Black music, i.e. funk, soul, and blues. (It can be argued that Hendrix, while Black, was part of the White rock music industry, but considering his upbringing and experience, I think it's easy and most incisive to conceptualize him within the lineage of African-American music.)

    Thoughts?
    I know this is probably not an original idea on my part, but it's something i've been thinking about. I'm interested to hear what the resident Soul-Strut experts think. Is this a tenable argument?

    I think i've summarized your question. So you are saying, an album like Bitches Brew (jazz-rock-fusion) is all Black in essence right?

    yeah i guess that's essentially it, thanks! i guess my issue is that superficial definitions of jazz-rock fusion sometimes overlook the primary importance of other African-American musical forms, cause 'rock,' to many people, implies 'white'.

    (this is of course, with all the caveats about how nothing can really be boiled down to a simple black/white dichotomy etc etc)

    I agree.
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