eBay End Game
mannybolone
Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
The other post reminded me to post this up - a topic I've been thinking about a lot lately:We all know that ebay has dramatically changed what record collecting/crate diggin' has been like and it's managed to do this in only about five years or so. My question is this:Where will collecting be in another five years b/c of eBay?Let me elaborate a bit...and more veteran folks than see should PLEASE correct any erroneous info I put out here...pre-eBay, the model for diggers was based largely around record stores, thrift stores, private trades and if you were bad ass enough, the road trip. While $$$ records still exchanged hands (like at record shows and private sales), I always get the idea that this era was a bargain shopper's paradise especially at a time when vinyl was being devalued in favor of the CD.Currently, what eBay has done is infuse vinyl with new value, and in many cases, inflate the value on records that used to sell for far less b/c a smaller consumer public were aware of certain titles, thereby reducing demand even if supply was already low. Moreover, it's also created a new form of collector/dealer like Funkyou! who road trips, not for himself, but to blow up whatever warehouses or collections he can then flip onto eBay. In that process, he's putting in professional time to find LP stashes that previously were discovered through amateur effort but he's also helping to inflate value on what he sells (i.e. like Anthony Pearson, his records routinely sell more than what other eBay sellers would get). In essence, this new eBay savvy dealer is a double threat to lower prices b/c 1) he's taking more records out of circulation for the rest of us non-pros, thereby decreasing supply and 2) drawing attention to what he sells, thereby increasing demand. Of course, the upside is that these same people are bringing records heretofore only available to a select group of people and now spreads that access to anyone looking for it. That's, of course, also what's helped bring prices up. So where does this all lead to?Does today's digger have to shell out considerably more $$$ now than his counterpart from 10 years ago? Will that trend ever reverse?Are there a finite number of mega-collections (i.e. warehouse finds) out there, dwindling to nothing as we speak? Will road trips even matter in the future? Will all record collecting be done vis a vis the internet, benefitting the highest bidders?And will today's diggers be tomorrow's dudes selling off their collection b/c they lost interest? Or are items now vanishing into private collections, never to appear again?
Comments
I don't think it will ever replace shops, road trips, and shows. Although I've met a number of greedy dealers lately that would rather put their stock on ebay than price it themselves and bring it to the show.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Justin will rant on for days about how fucked up shit is out there b/c more and more and more brick/mortar sellers are taking vinyl out of rotation in their physical stores and only selling on ebay.
I'm not saying record stores will suddenly crumble into disuse but I don't think diggin in '05 is like it was in '95 and I shudder to think what it will look like in '15.
It's also pushed the price down on a lot of records because people have realized that there are a lot more copies of them out there than they had previously believed, and it's brought a lot more sellers into the markeplace who often offer things that are under the radar of most record stores.
I use it a lot less than I used to... too many people that don't know how to grade and package records. I'd never swear off it entirely, though.
alley mcbeal is right about this
Same but the $$$ is so alluring though. For casual dealers who can afford to work in private, maybe they won't bother with ebay but for people who run record stores and that's their main source of income...can they afford to ignore ebay?
But I don't mean to put this all on ebay, despite the post title. I mean the impact of the internet as a whole in blowing the market wide open and making albums heretofore regional only suddenly available to anyone with a 56K (ok, more like DSL, but whatever).
5 years from now shit will be the same...people will still be looking on ebay for the same tired 100 funk records and the rest of us will be digging for whatever catches our eyes and picking it up on the cheap.
i mean, eventually records have to start getting really scarce, as in non-existant. they aren't being made anymore except for reissues and new music...all of the records we want are already made and out there either being listened to, sitting on a shelf in a store, or being destroyed.
I had written up a long essay that was going to be my reply to O-Dub, but this explains it perfectly. People had used Goldmine and Record Collector for years as a tool to sell their records, before that it was ads in the back of Rolling Stone. Now it's eBay, although instead of dealing with local and/or regional prices, you have to deal with what has become THE PRICE for a record. As I've said elsewhere, eBay has become the impulse aisle at a supermarket. You know you don't need it, but it's 1:23am, you promised you weren't going to the fridge to eat any more food, and dammit you have some extra cash in your PayPal account. By 1:37am, you bought 22 overpriced records and a Blue Mountain coffee "blend" from Jamaica.
eBay is not the rule, but all of us buy and sell there. We complain when we see a record we want priced sky high, but we love it when something we bought for a dollar or two goes for $235.
Like most of us have already noted on this site, eBay is a blessing and a curse. Some record values actually go down because of it (esp. if you live in a one-store-gouger type of town). And if you don't care about finding the OG (as some collectors don't), then supply, through the possibility of computer reproduction, is through the roof. If you consider SoulSeek and re-issue brands like Now Again and Jazzman, more people have the chance to hear the rarest of musics now than ever before - especially music that is from obscure towns and made by bands that couldn't afford to promote it initially. The hip-hop generation and its roots in sampling is the main reason for this interest and subsequent availability.
There are so many variables about future LP values, though. Will as many folks in 3 or 4 generations give two shits about copping an OG Headless Heroes (much less even hearing it)? Hell, no. How many of us on this board REALLY collect 78s or Edison Rolls? Times change and cultural musical styles move on. It's odd, though - I'll bet that, say, Kenny Smith and the Loveliters had no clue that their handful of recordings would be sought-after around the world 30+ years later. It's not as if they limited supply in advent of this demand; music purposefully released as a "controlled raer" is a newish marketing concept. Either way, re-issues are welcome in my camp and will be especially good options for folks in, say, 25+ years. I'm just waiting for the day in the future when several of these mega-collectors will put their combined collections on some miniscule data file so everyone can hear it.
(Edit: I wrote this after the second response to this thread, so I duplicated some of the above points. But it took a while to compose, so I'm posting this mess anyway)
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T.N.
PS Raers drying up as a reality makes me shudder
It also eliminates the middleman, for a small fee, thus the buyer and seller get the best value.
From this standpoint ebay is a good thing.
YES.
Only if you participate in the eBay market. I think there are still plenty of off-Internet places to get records cheap, and I predict that vinyl prices begin to drop as they become 100% outmoded. At least before there was a DJ application, but with the advent of being able to mix and scratch CDs/MP3s they aren't necessary anymore. I think this will really hurt hip hop records.
Yes. Records aren't produced in any quantity anymore so therefore there will be a finite amount of large scale warehouse finds.
No.
Yes / No. I bet the market gets flooded when these punks grow up and get real jobs.
I can't wait for this to happen!
Personally, I think eBay is a great. You want a record, you pay what you have to pay to get it at that moment, it arrives in the mail, you record it to mp3, file it on the shelf, and repeat the process.
Not a very persuasive argument but there you have it
In 10 years, there will be "new" raers, but the very same copy of Ramp that some dude paid $100 for last week will still be moving around, being traded...the question is what will it's (and all others) individual value be then? I think after eBay has been around for that long, things will shake down, everyone will know which records there are mass quantities of, and which are truly rare, and prices will stabilize...I see this in more like 3-5 years with all major and semi-major label titles, longer for true private ish.
I don't think so. The reason why prices are as high as they are now is because domestic and internationally-blown-up collectors (who have $$$ and don't care about wax being "outmoded") are pushing them to those levels.
I dont think so though I can already see people increasing prices based on the idea of a going market price as defined by ebay and then also record stores reflecting this ebay price so that overall the prices will increase. But then no one will buy so fuckit prices will theoretically drop. But then many record merchants are sad sad people and not likely to lower prices that a market cannot hold and instead will just hord the records. I personally things records are fun but there is no real money in it to speak of and not much satisfaction in buying and selling them.
philly show on may 22nd
For the thing about warehouse sales, once the warehouses full of unopened shit have been cleared out that's it, because no more are being made. I'm talking about over time, because shit that was new 25 years old is collectable now.
Some are like that. But there are many casual collectors. Big dollar spenders can only buy so many copies of the same album... well, unless they're psycho.
Don't believe me? Try selling 78s.
But along the same lines, the vinyl that is being made now is made in smaller quantities, and therefore becomes collectible that much faster. Today's records will be collectible in 10 years, although many of this year's records may be more valuable in, say, 3 years than in 10.
the buyers are in stratas. one billion people are willing to buy records for 1 to 5 dollars. a few are willing to spend $15 and up. now many people know about raers. no more starpoint for a dollar? is that what this thread is about? i got no time for the boo hoo hoo.
bud shank on pacific jazz used to sell for $500 to $600 in japan in the late 80's... deal with it. like some old boring ass world pacific title with a little drawing of his ass on the cover ( bud shank quartet ). i used to get $200 for nas lifes a bitch. prices change. private garbage sells for $50 to $100 now. those kinds of items unless they " had a name " used to change hands for 5 and 10 dollas. my friends and i used to pass kit ream back and forth as a joke in 1995.
old boring asss records for dead people go out of fashion and prices drop ( see vocals, swing, old rock and roll and doo wop 45's ). hey no big deal shit that once was $60 is now $10 or $15 if you are lucky. such is life. buy tomorrows records today, thats all.
whatever. all ebay means is that sukaz cant find a break for a dolla anymore. raer is raer. always has been always will be. but there's always some dude who straight up is over it and is ready to blow out his shit for whatever. lets face it, the shit is heavy *(weight) and you cant take it to the grave with you.
i dont say that to sound Opportunistic 90% of the time i have to pay out the ass for these records anyhow so whatever. i am just saying shit pops up. it is facinating how you cannot stop it from happening. it is the way of things. one day you are going to sell ( me too ). hopefully youl just consign yer shit to me.
ap
absolutly WURD...
Very true Anthony, I was waiting for someone to drop the Doo Wop example. One thing about hip hop: I think there are enough collectors into hip hop to keep the genre and collecting it sustainable to a certain extent. Hip Hop as a genre is not going anywhere. Thus, I would argue that the hip hop market is similar to the rock market, if not psych (to be specific). Some hip hop and psych pieces will always stay high because new generations are discovering it (and referencing it, as we are seeing with the garage rock revival. And on the hip hop side, whole electro/bass/south sound revival). Heck, I have doods like Mangoman going nuts for things they sold or traded 5-10 years ago
In my opinion this is the main problem with the market on funk, braeks, and jazz. I think it is because that market is truly limited compared to the number of new rock and hip hop releases that are actually still pressed (unless you consider "blazing downtempo" and "loungecore" to be the new breakz/jazz. There are very few new funk and jazz 12"s, 7"s, and LPs being pressed. Yes, there are a few so buy them while you still can. Once most of the major label plants shut down, that is it. Why? Well, dust off those 78s. How many of those are still around and being collected? Exactly.
Anyhow, I hope you are all stockpiling all the best New Funk, Grime, Texas Rap, Math Rock, Dance Punk, Ghettotech, and Twee LPs that are going to be worth $$$ in the coming 10-20 years. Good luck!
ps: I'm looking forward to the M.I.A revival approx 8 years from now. I'm printing this thread and putting it in my time capsule file drawer for a hearty chuckle 10 years from now.
pps: ME 20 YEARS FROM NOW: "EHHH SONNY, SEE, I TOLD YOU THESE PROMO CDs WERE GOING TO BE RAER!"