In any case, there's actually quite a few hip-hop singles that came out prior to "Rapper's Delight", prior to "King Tim III" even. Personally, I don't doubt that Blowfly - or anyone else - was dropping "rap songs" prior to 1979; as people have been pointing out, the style of rhyming over funk breaks is not unique to the late '70s - the antecedents are numerous.
But this doesn't make him "the father of rap" let alone hip-hop (and yes, I do think, in this case, it helps to split the two even if this means I'm angering Digdug Rapping has its roots in a variety of influences - maybe Blowfly as part of it, but certainly Jamaican toasting too (which has roots far earlier than Reid's career) or the tradition of African griots that go back centuries. Blowfly, to me, seems just another point on the continuum but he's not an origin.
I mean, you could find European musicians in the 1800s playing music that bear a resemblance to early jazz but does that mean jazz didn't begin in New Orleans simply because you can find some Austrians dropping King Oliver-like licks 50 years prior?
also, I don't get this statement at all: "How then, is Blowfly just an influence on rap, when he was releasing well known, well distributed, rap records before Grandmaster Flash and Sugar Hill Gang?"
Well, apparently, they couldn't have been that "well known rap records" if no one acknowledges them as such. What is that about? Did Sylvia Robinson pay off the right people?
In any case, none of what I'm arguing is part of "The Rolling Stone version of history." It is, however, part of the Steve Hager/Martha Cooper/Henry Chalfant/David Toop/Jeff Chang version of hip-hop history, most of which has been meticulously researched and documented.
I quote here from Toop's "Rap Attack #3" (but the information here was published in his first edition too):
"Out among the grown-ups the dozens thrive in the 'dirty party' genre with a host of little-known comedians. You can also find Johnny Otis with Snatch and the Poontangs, the very funny Redd Foxx, the very unfunny Rudy Ray Moore whose records covres scale the greatest heights of porno-kitsch and the notorious Blowfly. Blowfly, the unacceptable face of rap, is the pseudonym of Miami singer/producer Clarence Reid."
So Toop clearly places Blowfly WITHIN a rap continuum but doesn't set him up as a progenitor.
Notably, Toop goes on, in the next paragraph, to say this:
"One of the clearest links between present-day rappers and the rich vein of tall tales, tricksters, boasts and insults is Bo Diddley."
Pretty sure his career predates Reid's.
First off, Blowfly does not "run around telling" people anything - other than their dicks are small. This whole little tempest came out of a remark made about a book people hadn't read but slammed anyway. Roni did his homework, his book may be good or not, but he at least researched something outside the rolling stone version of history that seems to be dominant here.
I put this to all of you:
Would you consider "The Message" and "Rappers Delight" OG songs?
They came out in 1979.
"Porno Freak" came out in 1978. That's not debatable.
It featured two straight up rap songs. "Fuck the boss" and "Porno Freak." Also, not debatable.
How then, is Blowfly just an influence on rap, when he was releasing well known, well distributed, rap records before Grandmaster Flash and Sugar Hill Gang?
In any case, there's actually quite a few hip-hop singles that came out prior to "Rapper's Delight", prior to "King Tim III" even. Personally, I don't doubt that Blowfly - or anyone else - was dropping "rap songs" prior to 1979; as people have been pointing out, the style of rhyming over funk breaks is not unique to the late '70s - the antecedents are numerous.
But this doesn't make him "the father of rap" let alone hip-hop (and yes, I do think, in this case, it helps to split the two even if this means I'm angering Digdug Rapping has its roots in a variety of influences - maybe Blowfly as part of it, but certainly Jamaican toasting too (which has roots far earlier than Reid's career) or the tradition of African griots that go back centuries. Blowfly, to me, seems just another point on the continuum but he's not an origin.
I mean, you could find European musicians in the 1800s playing music that bear a resemblance to early jazz but does that mean jazz didn't begin in New Orleans simply because you can find some Austrians dropping King Oliver-like licks 50 years prior?
also, I don't get this statement at all: "How then, is Blowfly just an influence on rap, when he was releasing well known, well distributed, rap records before Grandmaster Flash and Sugar Hill Gang?"
Well, apparently, they couldn't have been that "well known rap records" if no one acknowledges them as such. What is that about? Did Sylvia Robinson pay off the right people?
In any case, none of what I'm arguing is part of "The Rolling Stone version of history." It is, however, part of the Steve Hager/Martha Cooper/Henry Chalfant/David Toop/Jeff Chang version of hip-hop history, most of which has been meticulously researched and documented.
I quote here from Toop's "Rap Attack #3" (but the information here was published in his first edition too):
"Out among the grown-ups the dozens thrive in the 'dirty party' genre with a host of little-known comedians. You can also find Johnny Otis with Snatch and the Poontangs, the very funny Redd Foxx, the very unfunny Rudy Ray Moore whose records covres scale the greatest heights of porno-kitsch and the notorious Blowfly. Blowfly, the unacceptable face of rap, is the pseudonym of Miami singer/producer Clarence Reid."
So Toop clearly places Blowfly WITHIN a rap continuum but doesn't set him up as a progenitor.
Notably, Toop goes on, in the next paragraph, to say this:
"One of the clearest links between present-day rappers and the rich vein of tall tales, tricksters, boasts and insults is Bo Diddley."
Pretty sure his career predates Reid's.
very well put it was a mash up, bronx area had some of the earliest synthesis of what would become the modern style lots of ingredients in different proportations
But again, I like the idea of opening up the floodgates to versions of proto-hip-hop that existed pre-Kool Herc.
this is a hilarious discussion...on that note, I remember Alan Bangs, a music journalist residing in Germany, trying to convince viewers that - while he was introducing the movie "breaking" (the one with Ice T?) - rap can be traced back as a concept to the first rapper - which was in his eyes Bob Dylan with "Subteranian Homesick Blues"...they even played this vid with the wordcards...I was shocked to say the least by such an ignorant tale of "his story"...so i don't care who says what about who was rappin first or who invented rhyming over a drumbeat, but it clearly wasn't mr. dylan..everytime i have hippies coming up to me with that dylanrapstory, i get unfriendly, to say the least....
But this doesn't make him "the father of rap" let alone hip-hop (and yes, I do think, in this case, it helps to split the two even if this means I'm angering Digdug
Sorry, O- the source of my frustration with that is youngsters trying to tell me that 50 Cent is "rap" while Jurassic 5 is "hip hop" because they "celebrate the culture"
I'm surprised no one has yet gone more in-depth into the development of rap in the 70s, I'd rather someone closer to the source (both figuratively and literally) would fill it in...
I think there are two definitions of "third coast" causing confusion/anger.
- The literal definition: The areas bordering the Gulf Coast region (Houston, New Orleans, and the immediate vicinity).
- The metaphorical definition: Hip-hop was traditionally been divided into East vs. West coast, and areas in the middle don't necessarily identify with either scene. So theoretically, the 3rd coast would include the above cities, and also Atlanta, Virginia, Carolina, etc. (Cities farther away from the ocean such as St. Louis, Chicago and Detroit would be considered "Midwest" rather than a "coast.")
Obviously, this book goes with the second definition, which would explain the inclusion of Outkast and Timbaland.
Well, here in Houston, we don't consider VA or GA a part of the third coast even in a hip hop context. I think that's record labels need to keep things in a nice tidy little package that they can market. OutKast and Timbaland don't even have "typical" dirty south or third coast sound.
I mean, when I think of VA and the Carolinas, names like Skillz, Magoo, World Reknown, Petey Pablo even lil bro... but outside of Petey, there's not much of a dirty south sound there. I'm probably missing someone though.
GA on the other had definitely has a dirty south though.
Basically that second definition is bullshit-ish.
Cashless you are talking out of your ass here. You and the people you know in Texas may not consider NC, SC, VA, or even ATl dirty south, but sorry they are. You know alot about TX rap, but that's where it seems to stop. NC and SC has alot of groups that have been grindin just as long as alot of the other southern groups, but for the most part VA, and NC all suffer from the same problem of a lack of local support for anything coming out of there. Unlike Houston and TX cats can't sell 100,000 units in their home town, they can sell 1,000 and that has no bearing on how good or bad the music is.
I don't know shit about this book, so I can't comment. I find it funny how people appoint themselves the know-all be-all over all areas of a genre of music because they are experienced in one facet. ease back, it's ok you don't know about local scenes outside your own, just don't revise the reality to fit your own perspective.
I think there are two definitions of "third coast" causing confusion/anger.
- The literal definition: The areas bordering the Gulf Coast region (Houston, New Orleans, and the immediate vicinity).
- The metaphorical definition: Hip-hop was traditionally been divided into East vs. West coast, and areas in the middle don't necessarily identify with either scene. So theoretically, the 3rd coast would include the above cities, and also Atlanta, Virginia, Carolina, etc. (Cities farther away from the ocean such as St. Louis, Chicago and Detroit would be considered "Midwest" rather than a "coast.")
Obviously, this book goes with the second definition, which would explain the inclusion of Outkast and Timbaland.
Well, here in Houston, we don't consider VA or GA a part of the third coast[/b] even in a hip hop context. I think that's record labels need to keep things in a nice tidy little package that they can market. OutKast and Timbaland don't even have "typical" dirty south or third coast sound.
I mean, when I think of VA and the Carolinas, names like Skillz, Magoo, World Reknown, Petey Pablo even lil bro... but outside of Petey, there's not much of a dirty south sound there. I'm probably missing someone though.
GA on the other had definitely has a dirty south though.
Basically that second definition is bullshit-ish.
Cashless you are talking out of your ass here. You and the people you know in Texas may not consider NC, SC, VA, or even ATl dirty south, but sorry they are.[/b] You know alot about TX rap, but that's where it seems to stop. NC and SC has alot of groups that have been grindin just as long as alot of the other southern groups, but for the most part VA, and NC all suffer from the same problem of a lack of local support for anything coming out of there. Unlike Houston and TX cats can't sell 100,000 units in their home town, they can sell 1,000 and that has no bearing on how good or bad the music is.
I don't know shit about this book, so I can't comment. I find it funny how people appoint themselves the know-all be-all over all areas of a genre of music because they are experienced in one facet. ease back, it's ok you don't know about local scenes outside your own, just don't revise the reality to fit your own perspective.
2 cents and out.
You can't read. Step your Dr. Suess game before opening your mouth. Obviously ATL is in the dirty south. I said they are not considered part of the Third Coast. You look real dumb.
You're referencing artists that are basically unknown and obviously beyond the scope of this book AND this thread. Do you really wanna talk about dudes with any particular sound from any region that sell 1,000 units as being included as an integral part of a much larger movement? The hell you say? If you do, then I know some dudes in Germany that are more "dirty south" than anybody.
In any case, there's actually quite a few hip-hop singles that came out prior to "Rapper's Delight", prior to "King Tim III" even.
Oliver--out of curiousity, what records do you have in mind?
Paul Winley has tried to claim that he put out rap records before Sylvia Robinson did and I know other people have argued that the first Younger Generation 12" actually preceded "Rapper's Delight" (which really doesn't even make sense), but I think both claims have been pretty authoritatively debunked.
In any case, there's actually quite a few hip-hop singles that came out prior to "Rapper's Delight", prior to "King Tim III" even.
Oliver--out of curiousity, what records do you have in mind?
Paul Winley has tried to claim that he put out rap records before Sylvia Robinson did and I know other people have argued that the first Younger Generation 12" actually preceded "Rapper's Delight" (which really doesn't even make sense), but I think both claims have been pretty authoritatively debunked.
there's a spanish rap thing that came out mere months before King Tim but I think that's it.
I think there are two definitions of "third coast" causing confusion/anger.
- The literal definition: The areas bordering the Gulf Coast region (Houston, New Orleans, and the immediate vicinity).
- The metaphorical definition: Hip-hop was traditionally been divided into East vs. West coast, and areas in the middle don't necessarily identify with either scene. So theoretically, the 3rd coast would include the above cities, and also Atlanta, Virginia, Carolina, etc. (Cities farther away from the ocean such as St. Louis, Chicago and Detroit would be considered "Midwest" rather than a "coast.")
Obviously, this book goes with the second definition, which would explain the inclusion of Outkast and Timbaland.
Well, here in Houston, we don't consider VA or GA a part of the third coast[/b] even in a hip hop context. I think that's record labels need to keep things in a nice tidy little package that they can market. OutKast and Timbaland don't even have "typical" dirty south or third coast sound.
I mean, when I think of VA and the Carolinas, names like Skillz, Magoo, World Reknown, Petey Pablo even lil bro... but outside of Petey, there's not much of a dirty south sound there. I'm probably missing someone though.
GA on the other had definitely has a dirty south though.
Basically that second definition is bullshit-ish.
Cashless you are talking out of your ass here. You and the people you know in Texas may not consider NC, SC, VA, or even ATl dirty south, but sorry they are.[/b] You know alot about TX rap, but that's where it seems to stop. NC and SC has alot of groups that have been grindin just as long as alot of the other southern groups, but for the most part VA, and NC all suffer from the same problem of a lack of local support for anything coming out of there. Unlike Houston and TX cats can't sell 100,000 units in their home town, they can sell 1,000 and that has no bearing on how good or bad the music is.
I don't know shit about this book, so I can't comment. I find it funny how people appoint themselves the know-all be-all over all areas of a genre of music because they are experienced in one facet. ease back, it's ok you don't know about local scenes outside your own, just don't revise the reality to fit your own perspective.
2 cents and out.
You can't read. Step your Dr. Suess game before opening your mouth. Obviously ATL is in the dirty south. I said they are not considered part of the Third Coast. You look real dumb.
You're referencing artists that are basically unknown and obviously beyond the scope of this book AND this thread. Do you really wanna talk about dudes with any particular sound from any region that sell 1,000 units as being included as an integral part of a much larger movement? The hell you say? If you do, then I know some dudes in Germany that are more "dirty south" than anybody.
addendum...
How 'bout Timbaland's from VA, down here on the third coast we don't consider VA to even be southern.
Yeh i will concede I misread the ATL association, but VA not southern? Shit certainly isn't northern. Funny quip about looking dumb though, when you continually espouse Texas artists that even though they sell 100,000 in their hometown, the majority from outside that region has no clue who they are. Just cause they are from Texas don't make shit dope dunny. Just cause Texas is finally on the mainstream map doesn't mean that for how many years no one outside Texas gave a shit about anything besides Rap-A-Lot and Suavehouse? How were the rest of those artists for all those years making an impact on the broader sound? What the fuck you say? Locally YES, regionally or nationally no.
This argument is hilarious, and how serious you take it is even funnier. I mean what you fail to realize from your perspective is that selling 1,000 or 15,000 of your independent CD in NC is equivelent to selling 100K of your CD in Houston. The difference is and has always been the truth is that certain regions support their artists while others just don't. NC for a fact is not a region that really supports its own.
As far as their integral part, that can be debated, and I wouldn't say they have ever been hugely influential. However I wouldn't discount them as not southern just because they haven't gotten any shine.
In any case, there's actually quite a few hip-hop singles that came out prior to "Rapper's Delight", prior to "King Tim III" even.
Oliver--out of curiousity, what records do you have in mind?
Paul Winley has tried to claim that he put out rap records before Sylvia Robinson did
the zulu nation throwdown records?
Actually, I think it's "Vicious Rap" that he makes the claim regarding--definitely one of the 12"s he cut on his daughters. The reissues that were around a few years back actually had a "First Rap Record" stamp on the sleeve...
i was just thinking the other day about a common argument regarding Dipset, that outside of NYC nobody gives a fuck...well this is true of a lot of local talent, such as E-40, Turf Talk, etc... doesn't mean they're not dope, but that regional ears sometimes don't hear the talent from outside of their own area. I have trouble convincing west coast dudes of Dipset's dopeness the same way I have trouble convincing NY heads that "Tell Me When To Go" is fire.
I think there are two definitions of "third coast" causing confusion/anger.
- The literal definition: The areas bordering the Gulf Coast region (Houston, New Orleans, and the immediate vicinity).
- The metaphorical definition: Hip-hop was traditionally been divided into East vs. West coast, and areas in the middle don't necessarily identify with either scene. So theoretically, the 3rd coast would include the above cities, and also Atlanta, Virginia, Carolina, etc. (Cities farther away from the ocean such as St. Louis, Chicago and Detroit would be considered "Midwest" rather than a "coast.")
Obviously, this book goes with the second definition, which would explain the inclusion of Outkast and Timbaland.
Well, here in Houston, we don't consider VA or GA a part of the third coast[/b] even in a hip hop context. I think that's record labels need to keep things in a nice tidy little package that they can market. OutKast and Timbaland don't even have "typical" dirty south or third coast sound.
I mean, when I think of VA and the Carolinas, names like Skillz, Magoo, World Reknown, Petey Pablo even lil bro... but outside of Petey, there's not much of a dirty south sound there. I'm probably missing someone though.
GA on the other had definitely has a dirty south though.
Basically that second definition is bullshit-ish.
Cashless you are talking out of your ass here. You and the people you know in Texas may not consider NC, SC, VA, or even ATl dirty south, but sorry they are.[/b] You know alot about TX rap, but that's where it seems to stop. NC and SC has alot of groups that have been grindin just as long as alot of the other southern groups, but for the most part VA, and NC all suffer from the same problem of a lack of local support for anything coming out of there. Unlike Houston and TX cats can't sell 100,000 units in their home town, they can sell 1,000 and that has no bearing on how good or bad the music is.
I don't know shit about this book, so I can't comment. I find it funny how people appoint themselves the know-all be-all over all areas of a genre of music because they are experienced in one facet. ease back, it's ok you don't know about local scenes outside your own, just don't revise the reality to fit your own perspective.
2 cents and out.
You can't read. Step your Dr. Suess game before opening your mouth. Obviously ATL is in the dirty south. I said they are not considered part of the Third Coast. You look real dumb.
You're referencing artists that are basically unknown and obviously beyond the scope of this book AND this thread. Do you really wanna talk about dudes with any particular sound from any region that sell 1,000 units as being included as an integral part of a much larger movement? The hell you say? If you do, then I know some dudes in Germany that are more "dirty south" than anybody.
addendum...
How 'bout Timbaland's from VA, down here on the third coast we don't consider VA to even be southern.
Yeh i will concede I misread the ATL association, but VA not southern? Shit certainly isn't northern. Funny quip about looking dumb though, when you continually espouse Texas artists that even though they sell 100,000 in their hometown, the majority from outside that region has no clue who they are. Just cause they are from Texas don't make shit dope dunny. Just cause Texas is finally on the mainstream map doesn't mean that for how many years no one outside Texas gave a shit about anything besides Rap-A-Lot and Suavehouse? How were the rest of those artists for all those years making an impact on the broader sound? What the fuck you say? Locally YES, regionally or nationally no.
This argument is hilarious, and how serious you take it is even funnier. I mean what you fail to realize from your perspective is that selling 1,000 or 15,000 of your independent CD in NC is equivelent to selling 100K of your CD in Houston. The difference is and has always been the truth is that certain regions support their artists while others just don't. NC for a fact is not a region that really supports its own.
As far as their integral part, that can be debated, and I wouldn't say they have ever been hugely influential. However I wouldn't discount them as not southern just because they haven't gotten any shine.
In any case, there's actually quite a few hip-hop singles that came out prior to "Rapper's Delight", prior to "King Tim III" even.
Oliver--out of curiousity, what records do you have in mind?
Paul Winley has tried to claim that he put out rap records before Sylvia Robinson did and I know other people have argued that the first Younger Generation 12" actually preceded "Rapper's Delight" (which really doesn't even make sense), but I think both claims have been pretty authoritatively debunked.
there's a spanish rap thing that came out mere months before King Tim but I think that's it.
What's it called? I have a Spanish rap 12" that sounds like it's from that era, but is undated. PM if so necessary.
I mean what you fail to realize from your perspective is that selling 1,000 or 15,000 of your independent CD in NC is equivelent to selling 100K of your CD in Houston.
I think there are two definitions of "third coast" causing confusion/anger.
- The literal definition: The areas bordering the Gulf Coast region (Houston, New Orleans, and the immediate vicinity).
- The metaphorical definition: Hip-hop was traditionally been divided into East vs. West coast, and areas in the middle don't necessarily identify with either scene. So theoretically, the 3rd coast would include the above cities, and also Atlanta, Virginia, Carolina, etc. (Cities farther away from the ocean such as St. Louis, Chicago and Detroit would be considered "Midwest" rather than a "coast.")
Obviously, this book goes with the second definition, which would explain the inclusion of Outkast and Timbaland.
Well, here in Houston, we don't consider VA or GA a part of the third coast[/b] even in a hip hop context. I think that's record labels need to keep things in a nice tidy little package that they can market. OutKast and Timbaland don't even have "typical" dirty south or third coast sound.
I mean, when I think of VA and the Carolinas, names like Skillz, Magoo, World Reknown, Petey Pablo even lil bro... but outside of Petey, there's not much of a dirty south sound there. I'm probably missing someone though.
GA on the other had definitely has a dirty south though.
Basically that second definition is bullshit-ish.
Cashless you are talking out of your ass here. You and the people you know in Texas may not consider NC, SC, VA, or even ATl dirty south, but sorry they are.[/b] You know alot about TX rap, but that's where it seems to stop. NC and SC has alot of groups that have been grindin just as long as alot of the other southern groups, but for the most part VA, and NC all suffer from the same problem of a lack of local support for anything coming out of there. Unlike Houston and TX cats can't sell 100,000 units in their home town, they can sell 1,000 and that has no bearing on how good or bad the music is.
I don't know shit about this book, so I can't comment. I find it funny how people appoint themselves the know-all be-all over all areas of a genre of music because they are experienced in one facet. ease back, it's ok you don't know about local scenes outside your own, just don't revise the reality to fit your own perspective.
2 cents and out.
You can't read. Step your Dr. Suess game before opening your mouth. Obviously ATL is in the dirty south. I said they are not considered part of the Third Coast. You look real dumb.
You're referencing artists that are basically unknown and obviously beyond the scope of this book AND this thread. Do you really wanna talk about dudes with any particular sound from any region that sell 1,000 units as being included as an integral part of a much larger movement? The hell you say? If you do, then I know some dudes in Germany that are more "dirty south" than anybody.
addendum...
How 'bout Timbaland's from VA, down here on the third coast we don't consider VA to even be southern.
Yeh i will concede I misread the ATL association, but VA not southern? Shit certainly isn't northern. Funny quip about looking dumb though, when you continually espouse Texas artists that even though they sell 100,000 in their hometown, the majority from outside that region has no clue who they are. Just cause they are from Texas don't make shit dope dunny. Just cause Texas is finally on the mainstream map doesn't mean that for how many years no one outside Texas gave a shit about anything besides Rap-A-Lot and Suavehouse? How were the rest of those artists for all those years making an impact on the broader sound? What the fuck you say? Locally YES, regionally or nationally no.
This argument is hilarious, and how serious you take it is even funnier. I mean what you fail to realize from your perspective is that selling 1,000 or 15,000 of your independent CD in NC is equivelent to selling 100K of your CD in Houston. The difference is and has always been the truth is that certain regions support their artists while others just don't. NC for a fact is not a region that really supports its own.
As far as their integral part, that can be debated, and I wouldn't say they have ever been hugely influential. However I wouldn't discount them as not southern just because they haven't gotten any shine.
seriously drink a beer. Eat a sammich.
Please stop. I'm starting to feel sorry for you.
Don't feel sorry, I am laughing the whole time. Your responses are classic!
In any case, there's actually quite a few hip-hop singles that came out prior to "Rapper's Delight", prior to "King Tim III" even.
Oliver--out of curiousity, what records do you have in mind?
Paul Winley has tried to claim that he put out rap records before Sylvia Robinson did and I know other people have argued that the first Younger Generation 12" actually preceded "Rapper's Delight" (which really doesn't even make sense), but I think both claims have been pretty authoritatively debunked.
there's a spanish rap thing that came out mere months before King Tim but I think that's it.
What's it called? I have a Spanish rap 12" that sounds like it's from that era, but is undated. PM if so necessary.
No need - PJ LaBoy - "Baya Latinos", dated 1979 on the label but seen in distro catalogues several months previous to king tim III.
In any case, there's actually quite a few hip-hop singles that came out prior to "Rapper's Delight", prior to "King Tim III" even.
Oliver--out of curiousity, what records do you have in mind?
Paul Winley has tried to claim that he put out rap records before Sylvia Robinson did and I know other people have argued that the first Younger Generation 12" actually preceded "Rapper's Delight" (which really doesn't even make sense), but I think both claims have been pretty authoritatively debunked.
there's a spanish rap thing that came out mere months before King Tim but I think that's it.
What's it called? I have a Spanish rap 12" that sounds like it's from that era, but is undated. PM if so necessary.
No need - PJ LaBoy - "Baya Latinos", dated 1979 on the label but seen in distro catalogues several months previous to king tim III.
33thirdcom: NC is most certainly Southern, but musically... not Southern like TX is by any means
Hell, as I said above, to this day the only local stuff that usually gets any attention is feel-good conscious/indie/backpacker whatever you wanna call it... and thats probably part of the problem with acts getting exposure nationally cuz the public isn't too interested in that stuff right now
NYC cast a huge shadow for a long time down here, and the music reflects that still...
TX on the other hand is its own musical universe, which has been incubating an incredible wealth of talent for well over a decade now... there really isn't much basis for comparison at all.
Aaah the Strut in full effect.. Now I'm getting really confused. Maybe i should just read the book... lol
I have a Joan Baez album from 1975 & she's rapping on a track. What does that mean...? Haven't dudes been rapping for hundreds of years? Blowfly gets picked up, but no mention of Muhammed Ali? Wasn't the inclusion of the emcee in hip hop the last 'element' anyway? Co-sign on the Jamaican influence moreso than Blowfly.., but I'm lost.
...and how can there be a third coast? Is there another ocean apart from the Pacific & Atlantic? I can perhaps see a gulf coast...
Jeez, i'm still trying to get to grips with Soutth Bronx, Queens, Manhatten, Staten Island, Brooklyn etc...
So where is the 'Dirty South'... Wouldn't it be south? What is this Mason Dixon line anyway...? Is it like the European Maginot? Some leftover war shit...?
So where is the 'Dirty South'... Wouldn't it be south? What is this Mason Dixon line anyway...? Is it like the European Maginot? Some leftover war shit...?
Comments
"The Message" didn't come out in 1979.
In any case, there's actually quite a few hip-hop singles that came out prior to "Rapper's Delight", prior to "King Tim III" even. Personally, I don't doubt that Blowfly - or anyone else - was dropping "rap songs" prior to 1979; as people have been pointing out, the style of rhyming over funk breaks is not unique to the late '70s - the antecedents are numerous.
But this doesn't make him "the father of rap" let alone hip-hop (and yes, I do think, in this case, it helps to split the two even if this means I'm angering Digdug
I mean, you could find European musicians in the 1800s playing music that bear a resemblance to early jazz but does that mean jazz didn't begin in New Orleans simply because you can find some Austrians dropping King Oliver-like licks 50 years prior?
also, I don't get this statement at all: "How then, is Blowfly just an influence on rap, when he was releasing well known, well distributed, rap records before Grandmaster Flash and Sugar Hill Gang?"
Well, apparently, they couldn't have been that "well known rap records" if no one acknowledges them as such. What is that about? Did Sylvia Robinson pay off the right people?
In any case, none of what I'm arguing is part of "The Rolling Stone version of history." It is, however, part of the Steve Hager/Martha Cooper/Henry Chalfant/David Toop/Jeff Chang version of hip-hop history, most of which has been meticulously researched and documented.
I quote here from Toop's "Rap Attack #3" (but the information here was published in his first edition too):
"Out among the grown-ups the dozens thrive in the 'dirty party' genre with a host of little-known comedians. You can also find Johnny Otis with Snatch and the Poontangs, the very funny Redd Foxx, the very unfunny Rudy Ray Moore whose records covres scale the greatest heights of porno-kitsch and the notorious Blowfly. Blowfly, the unacceptable face of rap, is the pseudonym of Miami singer/producer Clarence Reid."
So Toop clearly places Blowfly WITHIN a rap continuum but doesn't set him up as a progenitor.
Notably, Toop goes on, in the next paragraph, to say this:
"One of the clearest links between present-day rappers and the rich vein of tall tales, tricksters, boasts and insults is Bo Diddley."
Pretty sure his career predates Reid's.
very well put
it was a mash up,
bronx area had some of the earliest synthesis of what would become the modern style
lots of ingredients in different proportations
this is a hilarious discussion...on that note, I remember Alan Bangs, a music journalist residing in Germany, trying to convince viewers that - while he was introducing the movie "breaking" (the one with Ice T?) - rap can be traced back as a concept to the first rapper - which was in his eyes Bob Dylan with "Subteranian Homesick Blues"...they even played this vid with the wordcards...I was shocked to say the least by such an ignorant tale of "his story"...so i don't care who says what about who was rappin first or who invented rhyming over a drumbeat, but it clearly wasn't mr. dylan..everytime i have hippies coming up to me with that dylanrapstory, i get unfriendly, to say the least....
Sorry, O- the source of my frustration with that is youngsters trying to tell me that 50 Cent is "rap" while Jurassic 5 is "hip hop" because they "celebrate the culture"
I'm surprised no one has yet gone more in-depth into the development of rap in the 70s, I'd rather someone closer to the source (both figuratively and literally) would fill it in...
please to teach me
Cashless you are talking out of your ass here. You and the people you know in Texas may not consider NC, SC, VA, or even ATl dirty south, but sorry they are. You know alot about TX rap, but that's where it seems to stop. NC and SC has alot of groups that have been grindin just as long as alot of the other southern groups, but for the most part VA, and NC all suffer from the same problem of a lack of local support for anything coming out of there. Unlike Houston and TX cats can't sell 100,000 units in their home town, they can sell 1,000 and that has no bearing on how good or bad the music is.
I don't know shit about this book, so I can't comment. I find it funny how people appoint themselves the know-all be-all over all areas of a genre of music because they are experienced in one facet. ease back, it's ok you don't know about local scenes outside your own, just don't revise the reality to fit your own perspective.
2 cents and out.
It's not really necessary in this case.
You can't read. Step your Dr. Suess game before opening your mouth. Obviously ATL is in the dirty south. I said they are not considered part of the Third Coast. You look real dumb.
You're referencing artists that are basically unknown and obviously beyond the scope of this book AND this thread. Do you really wanna talk about dudes with any particular sound from any region that sell 1,000 units as being included as an integral part of a much larger movement? The hell you say? If you do, then I know some dudes in Germany that are more "dirty south" than anybody.
Oliver--out of curiousity, what records do you have in mind?
Paul Winley has tried to claim that he put out rap records before Sylvia Robinson did and I know other people have argued that the first Younger Generation 12" actually preceded "Rapper's Delight" (which really doesn't even make sense), but I think both claims have been pretty authoritatively debunked.
the zulu nation throwdown records?
there's a spanish rap thing that came out mere months before King Tim but I think that's it.
Yeh i will concede I misread the ATL association, but VA not southern? Shit certainly isn't northern. Funny quip about looking dumb though, when you continually espouse Texas artists that even though they sell 100,000 in their hometown, the majority from outside that region has no clue who they are. Just cause they are from Texas don't make shit dope dunny. Just cause Texas is finally on the mainstream map doesn't mean that for how many years no one outside Texas gave a shit about anything besides Rap-A-Lot and Suavehouse? How were the rest of those artists for all those years making an impact on the broader sound? What the fuck you say? Locally YES, regionally or nationally no.
This argument is hilarious, and how serious you take it is even funnier. I mean what you fail to realize from your perspective is that selling 1,000 or 15,000 of your independent CD in NC is equivelent to selling 100K of your CD in Houston. The difference is and has always been the truth is that certain regions support their artists while others just don't. NC for a fact is not a region that really supports its own.
As far as their integral part, that can be debated, and I wouldn't say they have ever been hugely influential. However I wouldn't discount them as not southern just because they haven't gotten any shine.
seriously drink a beer. Eat a sammich.
Actually, I think it's "Vicious Rap" that he makes the claim regarding--definitely one of the 12"s he cut on his daughters. The reissues that were around a few years back actually had a "First Rap Record" stamp on the sleeve...
Please stop. I'm starting to feel sorry for you.
What's it called? I have a Spanish rap 12" that sounds like it's from that era, but is undated. PM if so necessary.
*snort*
Not really
Don't feel sorry, I am laughing the whole time. Your responses are classic!
No need - PJ LaBoy - "Baya Latinos", dated 1979 on the label but seen in distro catalogues several months previous to king tim III.
Yeah, that's the one I have...
Hell, as I said above, to this day the only local stuff that usually gets any attention is feel-good conscious/indie/backpacker whatever you wanna call it... and thats probably part of the problem with acts getting exposure nationally cuz the public isn't too interested in that stuff right now
NYC cast a huge shadow for a long time down here, and the music reflects that still...
TX on the other hand is its own musical universe, which has been incubating an incredible wealth of talent for well over a decade now... there really isn't much basis for comparison at all.
Now I'm getting really confused. Maybe i should just read the book... lol
I have a Joan Baez album from 1975 & she's rapping on a track. What does that mean...?
Haven't dudes been rapping for hundreds of years? Blowfly gets picked up, but no mention of Muhammed Ali?
Wasn't the inclusion of the emcee in hip hop the last 'element' anyway? Co-sign on the Jamaican influence moreso than Blowfly.., but I'm lost.
...and how can there be a third coast? Is there another ocean apart from the Pacific & Atlantic? I can perhaps see a gulf coast...
Jeez, i'm still trying to get to grips with Soutth Bronx, Queens, Manhatten, Staten Island, Brooklyn etc...
So where is the 'Dirty South'... Wouldn't it be south?
What is this Mason Dixon line anyway...? Is it like the European Maginot? Some leftover war shit...?
Canada is the third coast.
Read this or you're soft!
Canada is the North Coast
If the south is the "dirty dirty", is Canada the "cleany, cleany"?
hahhahaha. i love this game.