personally i think soul is a bit overated / romanticised in our modern times... watching the recent PBS dylan doc I was amazed at how corny and downright silly alot of the folk movement he was part of came off in retrospect... shit like the clancy brothers, pete seeger et al... their steadfast aliance to some mythical form of AUTHENTIC soulful expresion was downright pittiful on alot of levels.
and yes i thing alot of it rests on that fetishising notion of the White Negro... educated dudes trying to act like they grew up in a one room shack next door to Leadbellies grandma.
personally while im not a "fan" of classical music / opera / euro folk / traditional musics etc etc .. i do however find these to be just as influential on my own music making as any notions of groove or funk.
I grew up in Nova Scotia and as a kid the only music my family played was traditional maritime / celtic music, classical music and opera. Up until I started buying music on my own those were the only types of music in my house.
My moms side of the family all sang in the choir and every family event was always marked by somebody on the piano. If you've ever witnessed your 85 year old grandma playing sea shanties on her mother's piano i think you'd be hard pressed to deny there's any soul involved.
Small statements(ill stay away from the race issues)
We are talking about the creation of modern written music from some of these origins(poly-tonal, medieval scribes writing first notes)
Secondly, for those who aren't fans two things. The emotion and skill in voice presented by opera is undeniable. I have performed in 3 (I pagliaci,Turandot and LaTosca as a child) and those scores are straight. The compositions/arragement behind them is incredible. Anyone liking string arrangements or horn stabs or anything look no further than classical music for the force behind it.
Secondly, artist like Provokiev, Strravinsky, Mozart and a lot of others we're very progressive in their writing so that is also fascinating to look at.
Finally, ill start a thread about this but vocal arragements can find their roots in the early choir parts written by the greats. Listne to chant des oiseaux by Janequin and prepare for face melt off.
Some of these classical cats we're as progressive/creative as your fav prog/psych so never sleep.
If you've ever witnessed your 85 year old grandma playing sea shanties on her mother's piano i think you'd be hard pressed to deny there's any soul involved.
Exactly,
Same could be said about a choir performing Handel's Hallelujah and I dont even need to talk about a opera signer's solo.
Also not to be forgotten is the stories behinf some of these creations. A lot of classical composers could barely live off their stuff and were almost bums. Yet their sheet music was mysteriously kept and only appreciated years later.
Imagining Bach,Beethoven writing by candle light gives me chills and the war and political aspect should not be negelected. Either national sentiment through song or hidden messages. Artists riling up corwds through sound only as lyricks we're prohibited.
Finally apart from Black bach rumors ( ) The contribution to classical from "non-white" sources can be observed in interchange between the middle east and classical composers. Through spain among others, tonal styles and rythms we're borrowed from arab music. Look at all the Arabesques released by many famous classical composers. The asian tones we're also used heavily.
Upto the crusades I think European music was played on flat (hand) drums, bone flutes and human voice. The crusaders took home tympani-like instruments (deep drums) and cithers. There were no snare instruments in Europe prior to that nor drums with a body. The first piano was a middle eastern cither with hammers attached. Also the violin, guitar, lute etc are derived from the cither if I understand correctly.
Upto the crusades I think European music was played on flat (hand) drums, bone flutes and human voice. The crusaders took home tympani-like instruments (deep drums) and cithers. There were no snare instruments in Europe prior to that nor drums with a body. The first piano was a middle eastern cither with hammers attached. Also the violin, guitar, lute etc are derived from the cither if I understand correctly.
your gonna tell me that NOBODY in all of europe in ALL of ancient times never beat on a hollow log???
I think you are confusing soul with breaks. In the end, there is no such thing as pure music.
I'm a cranky old man who wouldn't know a break if it bit me in the ass.
My opinion is based solely on 30+ years of listening to every type of music imaginable.
What I found while delving into every genre out there is that music I liked had a "groove" and music I didn't care for was "groove-less".
When I examined this further I found that the music that I felt didn't have this "groove" was music that was not directly influenced by black culture.
Classical, Euro-Folk, Opera, OOm-Pah etc. have NO origins in, nor were they influenced by black culture. The fact that this music sounds very sterile, calculated and "groove-less" can't just be a coincidence.
I define these genre's as "white" because I believe that these styles were developed strictly by white people, for white people with no other culture in mind.
I also believe that Aretha or Al Green can take an example of this white music and perform it with a "groove", but theywould then be the black influence needed to acheive said "groove".
This certainly doesn't discredit those genres of music, it just makes them different than those genres that were DIRECTLY influenced and/or evolved from black culture.
There certainly IS white music AND black music and many different hybrids that have been influenced by either/or.
I personally prefer music from the modern era(last 100 years) that has been influenced by black culture, regardless of the color/race/ethnicity of the performer.
And of course, there are exceptions to every rule but after 10,000's of hours of listening I do believe that my opinion has some validity.
i think for the most part instruments are UNIVERSAL regardless of geopraphic or cultural origin.
Idiophones - these are any instrument made of a naturally resonant material - ie rattles, bells, scrapers, stamping ( ie banging logs or the ground with a stick or bone)
Aerophones - flutes, whistles, bull roarers being the most primitive.
Membranophones - instruments where sound is made by the vibration of a stretched membrane or skin - there is evidence of these as far back as mesopotamia and egypt in at least 2000bc.
Chordophones - vibrating string instruments of which the simplest is the musica bow. Harps and Lyres were common in summeria and egypt at least 5000 years ago.
these are the groups in which all instruments draw their origins and they are completely universal, from ancient africa to the americas to the inuit.
I personally prefer music from the modern era(last 100 years) that has been influenced by black culture, regardless of the color/race/ethnicity of the performer.
What about Ellington taking harmonies from Debussy etc. Black music that wasn't influenced by white music/the west/classical music, does that exist? And would it be worth listening to? Just wondering.
I personally prefer music from the modern era(last 100 years) that has been influenced by black culture, regardless of the color/race/ethnicity of the performer.
What about Ellington taking harmonies from Debussy etc. Black music that wasn't influenced by white music/the west/classical music, does that exist? And would it be worth listening to? Just wondering.
I'd have to hear it to make that decision, but, if it was Duke doing a straight, exact duplicate of Debussy the answer would likely be no. If it was Duke adding his particular style to Debussy's work, giving it a groove, there's a better chance I'd like it.
What I found while delving into every genre out there is that music I liked had a "groove" and music I didn't care for was "groove-less".
well this is totally retarded man .. all music has groove.. the only way people can play together in a coordinated group is if they are keeping time and keeping time is groove.
OOm-Pah
the very name descirbes the GROOVE in that music... polka and such are almost purely rhythmic bassed musical forms designed to be danced too... thus they have GROOVE.
Classical, Euro-Folk, Opera, OOm-Pah etc. have NO origins in, nor were they influenced by black culture. The fact that this music sounds very sterile, calculated and "groove-less" can't just be a coincidence.
well again this is highly debatable.. all music originates from the original jam on the one.. ie the human heart beat.
second exaclty where does this "black music" originate?? are we talking tribal drumming or are we talking post slavery, post civil war ken burns "they picked up the instruments from the battlefield and made blues" ...
I also believe that Aretha or Al Green can take an example of this white music and perform it with a "groove", but they would then be the black influence needed to acheive said "groove".
again this is silly... if aretha did a polka cover with the muscle shoals rhyhm section produced by Jerry Wexler, this is going to have groove simply due to aretha standing in the room???? what if they laid down the rhythm tracks before she came i nthe studio and then just sang ontop??
this is some silly shit. All music is cross cultural and multicultural because EVERYBODY came from somewhere else originally.
I personally prefer music from the modern era(last 100 years) that has been influenced by black culture, regardless of the color/race/ethnicity of the performer.
what about the influence of white culture on said music??? i mean it doesnt get much whitter than the piano and the souzaphone but you need both for jazz no? and did jazz not stem from millitary band music? And how many of the pioneers of this music were well educated in multiple forms of music?
ive heard some chinese opera jams that i'd be hard pressed to find any rhythm in AT ALL.. hell half the point seems to be to hit those abrasive little cymbals on all the WRONG beats and at the least expected moments.
what about gamelen music?? that shit is mad funky and also mad mad rhthmic....
What I found while delving into every genre out there is that music I liked had a "groove" and music I didn't care for was "groove-less".
well this is totally retarded man .. all music has groove.. the only way people can play together in a coordinated group is if they are keeping time and keeping time is groove.
OOm-Pah
the very name descirbes the GROOVE in that music... polka and such are almost purely rhythmic bassed musical forms designed to be danced too... thus they have GROOVE.
Groove, flow, soul...whatever you want to use....if you can't tell the difference between Oom-Pah and what I am trying to describe, then I give up.
Never thought this topic would be that much of a hot button.....
Maybe next I'll start a thread that says ALL music is influenced by white culture and watch the same people's heads explode...
What I found while delving into every genre out there is that music I liked had a "groove" and music I didn't care for was "groove-less".
well this is totally retarded man .. all music has groove.. the only way people can play together in a coordinated group is if they are keeping time and keeping time is groove.
OOm-Pah
the very name descirbes the GROOVE in that music... polka and such are almost purely rhythmic bassed musical forms designed to be danced too... thus they have GROOVE.
Groove, flow, soul...whatever you want to use....if you can't tell the difference between Oom-Pah and what I am trying to describe, then I give up.
I understand where your comin' from but Groove/Flow/Soul arent technical terms,but descriptive terms. Nothin' iz definitive.
there's no need to apologise ... i think the topic is a valid one. And I think there's sbeen alot of interesting things in this thread
and the fact that somebody called you on the PM to rag you initially is straight BS if you ask me.
Groove, flow, soul...whatever you want to use....if you can't tell the difference between Oom-Pah and what I am trying to describe, then I give up.
Im not saying there isnt a differance.
however i think your whole premise is based on a notion that groove and soul are only expressed by black musicians and people who've been influenced by that culture and i just think thats flat out wrong on every level.
Groove is simply rhythm and i fail to see how this has anything to do with race. All forms of music require some form of rhythm and time keeping and thus all forms of music feature GROOVE. If you want to microdefine groove as some kind of intangible "I know it when i hear it and its a black thing" than i guess that's you're perogative but it doesnt make any sense from a musical standpoint.
Soul - is a more intangible concept. But as i said before all music stems from the human heart beat.. that is the groove. All music also started out as ritualistic, and thus expresses some form of an attempt to communicate intangible concepts like man's place in the universe.
even the most square ass white bald priests who've never been laid in their lives are expressing soul and are grooving when they bust out their gregorian chants.
I'm a cranky old man who wouldn't know a break if it bit me in the ass.
My opinion is based solely on 30+ years of listening to every type of music imaginable.
What I found while delving into every genre out there is that music I liked had a "groove" and music I didn't care for was "groove-less".
When I examined this further I found that the music that I felt didn't have this "groove" was music that was not directly influenced by black culture.
Classical, Euro-Folk, Opera, OOm-Pah etc. have NO origins in, nor were they influenced by black culture. The fact that this music sounds very sterile, calculated and "groove-less" can't just be a coincidence.
I define these genre's as "white" because I believe that these styles were developed strictly by white people, for white people with no other culture in mind.
I also believe that Aretha or Al Green can take an example of this white music and perform it with a "groove", but theywould then be the black influence needed to acheive said "groove".
This certainly doesn't discredit those genres of music, it just makes them different than those genres that were DIRECTLY influenced and/or evolved from black culture.
There certainly IS white music AND black music and many different hybrids that have been influenced by either/or.
I personally prefer music from the modern era(last 100 years) that has been influenced by black culture, regardless of the color/race/ethnicity of the performer.
And of course, there are exceptions to every rule but after 10,000's of hours of listening I do believe that my opinion has some validity.
Rich
You seem to have a simple set of criteria you apply to the genres you delve into and if it doesn't fit, you dismiss the music. You call classical music (among other genres) sterile, grooveless, soulless, pompous, boring, clinical and calculated. As an opinion it's fine but your wholly subjective observations make for a very shaky theory. You may have heard a lot of different music over the years but sounds like you don't actually choose to listen to anything outside of the personal 'groove' comfort zone you've retreated into. Keep your mind open.
Ok one last thing - understand that most of the classical music we have today was the 0.1% of music that was written down over the ages. It was commissioned by the great and the rich - it was the music of the intellectual and cultural elite, not the popular music of the people. It is not the sum total or the definitive representation of the European musical heritage. As for European music being music by white people for white people... No. It was music for people by people and it was influenced by all the things, people and places that influenced the composers.
You've added 2 and 2 and come up with something strange. Next you'll be telling me that black people have an extra groove gene.
Or maybe you're just saying you like synchopated music.
What I found while delving into every genre out there is that music I liked had a "groove" and music I didn't care for was "groove-less".
well this is totally retarded man .. all music has groove.. the only way people can play together in a coordinated group is if they are keeping time and keeping time is groove.
OOm-Pah
the very name descirbes the GROOVE in that music... polka and such are almost purely rhythmic bassed musical forms designed to be danced too... thus they have GROOVE.
Groove, flow, soul...whatever you want to use....if you can't tell the difference between Oom-Pah and what I am trying to describe, then I give up.
Never thought this topic would be that much of a hot button.....
Maybe next I'll start a thread that says ALL music is influenced by white culture and watch the same people's heads explode...
I apologize for ever starting this discussion.
Rich
I get what you are saying and don't understand what the fuss is about, mind you I just skimmed this thread. I tend to agree that most music that I can vibe with tends to be influenced by soul/R&B to some extent. What about Kraftwerk though? I can get down with them and they seem to be farther removed from other musical influences.
only poorly performed "classical" music lacks soul...unfortunately there is plenty of poorly performed "classical" music out there...dig a little deeper...I work at a stringed instrument store (violin, viola, cello and bass) so I've had plenty of oportunity to hear playing of all kinds...
Comments
i think this has a break
and yes i thing alot of it rests on that fetishising notion of the White Negro... educated dudes trying to act like they grew up in a one room shack next door to Leadbellies grandma.
personally while im not a "fan" of classical music / opera / euro folk / traditional musics etc etc .. i do however find these to be just as influential on my own music making as any notions of groove or funk.
I grew up in Nova Scotia and as a kid the only music my family played was traditional maritime / celtic music, classical music and opera. Up until I started buying music on my own those were the only types of music in my house.
My moms side of the family all sang in the choir and every family event was always marked by somebody on the piano. If you've ever witnessed your 85 year old grandma playing sea shanties on her mother's piano i think you'd be hard pressed to deny there's any soul involved.
We are talking about the creation of modern written music from some of these origins(poly-tonal, medieval scribes writing first notes)
Secondly, for those who aren't fans two things. The emotion and skill in voice presented by opera is undeniable. I have performed in 3 (I pagliaci,Turandot and LaTosca as a child) and those scores are straight. The compositions/arragement behind them is incredible. Anyone liking string arrangements or horn stabs or anything look no further than classical music for the force behind it.
Secondly, artist like Provokiev, Strravinsky, Mozart and a lot of others we're very progressive in their writing so that is also fascinating to look at.
Finally, ill start a thread about this but vocal arragements can find their roots in the early choir parts written by the greats. Listne to chant des oiseaux by Janequin and prepare for face melt off.
Some of these classical cats we're as progressive/creative as your fav prog/psych so never sleep.
Classical music is essential
so true ... where would prog even be without classical music?? let alone crum horns and morris dancers.
Exactly,
Same could be said about a choir performing Handel's Hallelujah and I dont even need to talk about a opera signer's solo.
Also not to be forgotten is the stories behinf some of these creations. A lot of classical composers could barely live off their stuff and were almost bums. Yet their sheet music was mysteriously kept and only appreciated years later.
Imagining Bach,Beethoven writing by candle light gives me chills and the war and political aspect should not be negelected. Either national sentiment through song or hidden messages. Artists riling up corwds through sound only as lyricks we're prohibited.
Finally apart from Black bach rumors (
The contribution to classical from "non-white" sources can be observed in interchange between the middle east and classical composers. Through spain among others, tonal styles and rythms we're borrowed from arab music. Look at all the Arabesques released by many famous classical composers. The asian tones we're also used heavily.
your gonna tell me that NOBODY in all of europe in ALL of ancient times never beat on a hollow log???
True
This is the only Pure White music
And it disgusts me profoundly
People probably did, but apparently it didn't catch on and thus wasn't included in recorded history.
I'm a cranky old man who wouldn't know a break if it bit me in the ass.
My opinion is based solely on 30+ years of listening to every type of music imaginable.
What I found while delving into every genre out there is that music I liked had a "groove" and music I didn't care for was "groove-less".
When I examined this further I found that the music that I felt didn't have this "groove" was music that was not directly influenced by black culture.
Classical, Euro-Folk, Opera, OOm-Pah etc. have NO origins in, nor were they influenced by black culture. The fact that this music sounds very sterile, calculated and "groove-less" can't just be a coincidence.
I define these genre's as "white" because I believe that these styles were developed strictly by white people, for white people with no other culture in mind.
I also believe that Aretha or Al Green can take an example of this white music and perform it with a "groove", but theywould then be the black influence needed to acheive said "groove".
This certainly doesn't discredit those genres of music, it just makes them different than those genres that were DIRECTLY influenced and/or evolved from black culture.
There certainly IS white music AND black music and many different hybrids that have been influenced by either/or.
I personally prefer music from the modern era(last 100 years) that has been influenced by black culture, regardless of the color/race/ethnicity of the performer.
And of course, there are exceptions to every rule but after 10,000's of hours of listening I do believe that my opinion has some validity.
Rich
Idiophones - these are any instrument made of a naturally resonant material - ie rattles, bells, scrapers, stamping ( ie banging logs or the ground with a stick or bone)
Aerophones - flutes, whistles, bull roarers being the most primitive.
Membranophones - instruments where sound is made by the vibration of a stretched membrane or skin - there is evidence of these as far back as mesopotamia and egypt in at least 2000bc.
Chordophones - vibrating string instruments of which the simplest is the musica bow. Harps and Lyres were common in summeria and egypt at least 5000 years ago.
these are the groups in which all instruments draw their origins and they are completely universal, from ancient africa to the americas to the inuit.
What about Ellington taking harmonies from Debussy etc. Black music that wasn't influenced by white music/the west/classical music, does that exist? And would it be worth listening to? Just wondering.
I'd have to hear it to make that decision, but, if it was Duke doing a straight, exact duplicate of Debussy the answer would likely be no. If it was Duke adding his particular style to Debussy's work, giving it a groove, there's a better chance I'd like it.
"groove" meaning what exactly? Instinct vs technique.
Is the Ghetto Fabulous(Rass Kass) sample a "groove"?
well this is totally retarded man .. all music has groove.. the only way people can play together in a coordinated group is if they are keeping time and keeping time is groove.
OOm-Pah
the very name descirbes the GROOVE in that music... polka and such are almost purely rhythmic bassed musical forms designed to be danced too... thus they have GROOVE.
well again this is highly debatable.. all music originates from the original jam on the one.. ie the human heart beat.
second exaclty where does this "black music" originate?? are we talking tribal drumming or are we talking post slavery, post civil war ken burns "they picked up the instruments from the battlefield and made blues" ...
again this is silly... if aretha did a polka cover with the muscle shoals rhyhm section produced by Jerry Wexler, this is going to have groove simply due to aretha standing in the room???? what if they laid down the rhythm tracks before she came i nthe studio and then just sang ontop??
this is some silly shit. All music is cross cultural and multicultural because EVERYBODY came from somewhere else originally.
what about the influence of white culture on said music??? i mean it doesnt get much whitter than the piano and the souzaphone but you need both for jazz no? and did jazz not stem from millitary band music? And how many of the pioneers of this music were well educated in multiple forms of music?
ive heard some chinese opera jams that i'd be hard pressed to find any rhythm in AT ALL.. hell half the point seems to be to hit those abrasive little cymbals on all the WRONG beats and at the least expected moments.
what about gamelen music?? that shit is mad funky and also mad mad rhthmic....
you know you'd tap
Groove, flow, soul...whatever you want to use....if you can't tell the difference between Oom-Pah and what I am trying to describe, then I give up.
Never thought this topic would be that much of a hot button.....
Maybe next I'll start a thread that says ALL music is influenced by white culture and watch the same people's heads explode...
I apologize for ever starting this discussion.
Rich
I understand where your comin' from but Groove/Flow/Soul arent technical terms,but descriptive terms. Nothin' iz definitive.
there's no need to apologise ... i think the topic is a valid one. And I think there's sbeen alot of interesting things in this thread
and the fact that somebody called you on the PM to rag you initially is straight BS if you ask me.
Im not saying there isnt a differance.
however i think your whole premise is based on a notion that groove and soul are only expressed by black musicians and people who've been influenced by that culture and i just think thats flat out wrong on every level.
Groove is simply rhythm and i fail to see how this has anything to do with race. All forms of music require some form of rhythm and time keeping and thus all forms of music feature GROOVE. If you want to microdefine groove as some kind of intangible "I know it when i hear it and its a black thing" than i guess that's you're perogative but it doesnt make any sense from a musical standpoint.
Soul - is a more intangible concept. But as i said before all music stems from the human heart beat.. that is the groove. All music also started out as ritualistic, and thus expresses some form of an attempt to communicate intangible concepts like man's place in the universe.
even the most square ass white bald priests who've never been laid in their lives are expressing soul and are grooving when they bust out their gregorian chants.
You seem to have a simple set of criteria you apply to the genres you delve into and if it doesn't fit, you dismiss the music. You call classical music (among other genres) sterile, grooveless, soulless, pompous, boring, clinical and calculated. As an opinion it's fine but your wholly subjective observations make for a very shaky theory. You may have heard a lot of different music over the years but sounds like you don't actually choose to listen to anything outside of the personal 'groove' comfort zone you've retreated into. Keep your mind open.
Ok one last thing - understand that most of the classical music we have today was the 0.1% of music that was written down over the ages. It was commissioned by the great and the rich - it was the music of the intellectual and cultural elite, not the popular music of the people. It is not the sum total or the definitive representation of the European musical heritage. As for European music being music by white people for white people... No. It was music for people by people and it was influenced by all the things, people and places that influenced the composers.
You've added 2 and 2 and come up with something strange. Next you'll be telling me that black people have an extra groove gene.
Or maybe you're just saying you like synchopated music.
I get what you are saying and don't understand what the fuss is about, mind you I just skimmed this thread. I tend to agree that most music that I can vibe with tends to be influenced by soul/R&B to some extent.
What about Kraftwerk though? I can get down with them and they seem to be farther removed from other musical influences.
how about this right hurr...
is this pure enough for ya?