the big difference between europe and america is that we're a melting pot, whereas most european countries are not. people don't like other people that don't look/think like them. this is why everything in america seems bananas to someone in, say, france, where the majority are white french people. with white french people running a government full of white french people, governing a largely white, french majority, it's much easier to agree.
(...)
so before you get on some "you elected bush, you get what you deserve," do the knowledge[/b].
Are you sure about this? Big cities in the Netherlands, for example, have between 30 and 40% muslim population and that will be a majority someday. In France that amount is even bigger, I think. Overall in the Netherlands the percentage of non-western immigrants (upto second generation, after that it's not counted) is 10/15% and thus the total amount of non-white people might be double or triple that. Europe might be much more heterogenous than the states actually. But you can argue about whether Europe is as much a "melting pot". Just responding to your "do the knowledge" Check it out yourself.
and by the way, to the european[/b] dudes, you all[/b] almost elected nazi's recently, so eat a dick!
Cosign on this though (not the dick eating part).
I don't cosign Noixe's statement at all, which is as ignorant of European reality as some Europeans are of American reality.
Arguably, the biggest social issue in Europe right now is race. What stinks about some things I've heard from across the pond about NOLA is that, if you go to many European countries the conditions of Africans and Muslims are not much different than American Blacks and the disregard is the same. I can't tell you how many times Europeans (of many diff countries) have told me the big problem is immigrants who are just there to bleed social services, they don't want to work, they just come and take take take. Hmmmmmmmm sound familiar?
Anyways no beef it is an interesting discussion and I got mad love for my Europeans!!!
I don't cosign Noixe's statement at all, which is as ignorant of European reality as some Europeans are of American reality.
Arguably, the biggest social issue in Europe right now is race.
Europeans and Americans have plenty in common, and neither want to examine the roots and address the complex issues that have arisen in our poorest areas. Homogeny is just not as prevelant a reality anymore in either Europe or America and people need to face up to it.
ok well first of all I was drunk when I wrote that. I stand by my statement, I don't stand by the beligerance. my bad.
I know race is an issue in europe, but european countries are smaller and less complex. bush essentially played various race cards across the country to garner votes. he had a variety of cards to pull: keep blacks out of the suburbs, keep arab terrorists from crashing a plane into your silo, keep mexicans from taking your jobs and your tax dollars...dude won mad cuban votes by keeping up the embargo, which is different, but related. it's divide and conquer. you can't win an election in america by harping on immigrants. if you could, we'd have president pat "let's build a fence around america" robertson. the sheer size of america complicates it also. bush *can* divide and conquer because many people fear factions in an almost abstract sense. reagan's "welfare queen" bullshit played well to many people who had never met anyone on welfare.
I get the sense the european race problem is a little more simplistic. it's no less tragic and ignorant, and no less of a problem, but its effect on politics would be more basic in a country with fewer people and fewer large minorities.
Vous devriez ??tre plus gentil dans ce que vous dites de peuple ici. Ils sont bless??s et font tout ils bidon pour aider les victimes d'ouragan. Infact, nous avons soulev?? presque $100.000. Quand vous dites quelque chose comme le ce, vous semblez juste comme ignorant que George Bush.
I'm american as fuck.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
the big difference between europe and america is that we're a melting pot, whereas most european countries are not.
Just for the record, on my block - one small block in one part of East London - there are Filipinos, Somalis, Koreans, Chinese, Australians, South Africans, Bangladeshis, Croats and Eritreans. Oh, and English as well. You'll probably find it's much the same throughout the rest of Europe. Not trying to get into a pissing contest; merely pointing out that most developed countries, or at least the big conurbations therein, tend to be pretty cosmopolitan nowadays.
Having visited a bunch of different parts of America, including the South, and not just the tourist hubs, it didn't take long for me to learn there's a big difference between the American government (whatever its hue) and the American people, and that it's actually kinda lazy to base your judgement of the latter on your opinion of the former. That said, I don't think I'd ever risk getting too deep into a political conversation with an American on his/her own soil; "Hey, Bush may be an asshole, but he's our asshole!"
Vous devriez ??tre plus gentil dans ce que vous dites de peuple ici. Ils sont bless??s et font tout ils bidon pour aider les victimes d'ouragan. Infact, nous avons soulev?? presque $100.000. Quand vous dites quelque chose comme le ce, vous semblez juste comme ignorant que George Bush.
I know race is an issue in europe, but european countries are smaller and less complex.
This is the stupidest thing I've heard in a while.
From wikipedia:
According to the UNHCR, the number of people seeking political asylum in France rose by around 3 per cent between 2003 and 2004, while in the same period, the number of asylum applications submitted in the United States fell by about 29 per cent. France thereby replaced the United States as the world's top destination for asylum-seekers in 2004.
In France they're dead serious about the immigrant/race problem these days. It's becoming really aggressive from both sides. It's getting ugly. Take a look at these links:
I'm not agreeing with the ones who says immigration is the problem itself. The real problem is that people don't listen to each other anymore. In France, Germany and Netherlands we have had really aggressive riots the last years. It's not looking good.
Just for the record, on my block - one small block in one part of East London - there are Filipinos, Somalis, Koreans, Chinese, Australians, South Africans, Bangladeshis, Croats and Eritreans.
I'm sharing a kitchen with 5 other appartments, and only one of them is Norwegian. We have the muslim, the latin american, the asian and the eastern european. The whole world is a melting pot today. It's always been.
the big difference between europe and america is that we're a melting pot, whereas most european countries are not.
Just for the record, on my block - one small block in one part of East London - there are Filipinos, Somalis, Koreans, Chinese, Australians, South Africans, Bangladeshis, Croats and Eritreans. Oh, and English as well. You'll probably find it's much the same throughout the rest of Europe. Not trying to get into a pissing contest; merely pointing out that most developed countries, or at least the big conurbations therein, tend to be pretty cosmopolitan nowadays.
Having visited a bunch of different parts of America, including the South, and not just the tourist hubs, it didn't take long for me to learn there's a big difference between the American government (whatever its hue) and the American people, and that it's actually kinda lazy to base your judgement of the latter on your opinion of the former. That said, I don't think I'd ever risk getting too deep into a political conversation with an American on his/her own soil; "Hey, Bush may be an asshole, but he's our asshole!"
Same thing on my block. There's a pot of ethnic gumbo cooking on my streets every day. I'm a testament to that myself - half haitian, half danish. Saying that America is a melting pot and Europe is not is a major misconception. Anyway, Europe might politically be moving towards a federal construction, but that does not mean that you can make general statements about the mentality on the continent.
There is a HUGE difference between, say, Sweden and Greece. Every country on the continent has it's own history and culture. Great Britain, The Netherlands, France, Spain, Portugal and others have a long colonial history which brought about a lot of migration from former colonies, like for example the large number of people from India, Jamaica a.o. in England. On top of this there's the 'ordinary' influx of immigrants and refugees coming from pretty much all over the world. In southern Europe, there are always people from various African countries crossing the Mediterreanean to find a new life on the other side. Historically there are many different reasons for the myriads of regional migrations.
In my country, there was a lot of turkish people coming here to work during the late 60s and throughout the 70s, because there was a shortage of labour. In the 80s we had a lot of refugees coming from places like Sri Lanka and Iran because of politically heated situations in their homelands. In the 90s the war in Bosnia and Somalia caused people to flee. And again, amidst people escaping political violence, there is always a steady flow of people just trying to escape poverty and dismal circumstances or just seeking fresh surroundings. So most countries here are ethnically very diverse.
My mother's side of the family fled from Port-Au-Prince to New York in the early 50s and are now spread out over the entire U.S. I've lived in and visited many parts of America many times, so I am well aware of the good as well as the bad sides. There are beautiful as well as ugly people, just like anywhere else in the world. But to blame a nation as an whole for having an idiot as their president is very shallow. Come on, we all know that it just ain't that simple! It's deep and I feel with all americans who are frustrated with a political system that they don't agree with. I even feel with the americans who agree with the system. 'Forgive them, Lord, for they know not what they do???'
We all like to poke fun at other countries, and that's cool as long as everybody knows what the real deal is when it boils down to serious business. At times like these we have to to put all those readymade opinions and stereotypes to rest. Erics post was ill-timed and too easy. Let's get past the dumb shit like 'all americans are stupid' or 'people from France are arrogant'. Get out of the trenches and get real, because that other shit is just a downward spiral. Much respect to J.Paycheck for keeping a level head even though I fully understand why people are tired of getting mud thrown in their face. Let's listen and learn from each other instead of throwing condescending views and fuckyous around.
And dumbass comments about somebodys ability to write in english need to stop. That's a real arrogant cheapshot. Grow up, people.
The whole world is a melting pot today. It's always been.
whoa
Agreed. This is a major overstatement. 100 years ago we had people coming from Africa to Denmark as parts of travelling circuses, put in cages as freaks to amuse danes who had never seen anyone like that before . They actually had advertisements, almost to the extent of 'See these mystic savages from the Dark Continent dance around with their big hairy genitals'. I wish I could find an image of one of those old posters, that was truly terrible and embarrasing for a so-called civilized country.
Let's get the facts straight. The movement of people within and outside Europe didn't seriously start until the collapse of the colonial system and the emergence of cheaper and easier travel, making migration an realistic option for many people who would never have dreamed of that before. We're talking maybe the last 50 years or so. When my mother came to Denmark in 1970 you better believe she stuck out like a sore thumb! My grandparents on my father's side were dumbfounded when he introduced her to them. People were still not used to seeing that many foreigners then. This has of course been different from country to country, depending on the history, but the whole melting pot thing is still a relatively new thing.
Think about the old Rome. Do you really think it only consisted of "romans"? No, it didn't. People traveled a lot more than most people think of. The vikings, or grandfathers, travelled all over the world. Most went to Iceland, England and France, but many also went to Russia, Turkey and far, far away (many believe they also went to America, long before that Christopher guy). Deep, deep inside us we're nomads. We travel around depending on our needs. Where there was a lot of people, there was also a lot of different people. This is a fact. I study art history, and it's very easy to see how people is connected when you look at art.
It's true that there has always been some level of cultural exchange between nations, but travelling was often reserved for merchants, the upper class, intellectuals or artists. The average man in all parts of the world wasn't nowhere near the thought of intercontinental travelling. Exempt from this statement are of course those peoples whose very culture was based on moving over vast distances (like nomads). Still it was not like how it is today, where people have a actual possibility of moving themselves and their whole family to the other side of the world. All you need is a ticket for a plane/bus/train/ship, and that's within reach for a lot of people, even many living in poverty.
(Sorry for the thread-hogging, folks. I'm feeling David Banner as well).
It's true that there has always been some level of cultural exchange between nations, but travelling was often reserved for merchants, the upper class, intellectuals or artists.
the so-called "melting pot" is large communities of several diverse cultures co-existing in one area. not several people of different ethnicities in one city.
serious does not equal complex.
I understand shit is real in france and that there are riots. but the situation in france speaks about France as a whole, and seems to be a fight between whites and muslims, with some black and jewish elements thrown in.
in america, every single large city has its own racial situation, largely unique to each city. madison and minneapolis have large communities of mung from thailand. chicago has the biggest polish community in the world. st. louis has a growing bosnian population. south florida has a giant cuban contingent. detroit has the biggest arab population in the country. every single locale has its own issues, and they differ greatly depending on where one is in the country.
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
madison and minneapolis have large communities of hmong from laos.
Mere presence of a group does not denotes its integration into the community. Numerical racial diversity has nothing to do with how the groups are accepted, as indicated by the racial discrimination endured regularly by Hmong people in western Wisconsin (see Hein, 2000). Here's the reference (and some others):
Feagin, J. R. (1991). The continuing significance of race: Antiblack discrimination in public places. American Sociological Review, 56, 101-116.
Green, D. P., Strolovitch, D. Z., & Wong, J. S. (1998). Defended neighborhoods, integration, and racially motivated crime. American Journal of Sociology, 104, 372-403.
Hein, J. (2000). Interpersonal discrimination against Hmong Americans: Parallels and variations in microlevel racial inequality. The Sociological Quarterly, 41, 413-429.
madison and minneapolis have large communities of hmong from laos.
Mere presence of a group does not denotes its integration into the community. Numerical racial diversity has nothing to do with how the groups are accepted, as indicated by the racial discrimination endured regularly by Hmong people in western Wisconsin (see Hein, 2000). Here's the reference (and some others):
Feagin, J. R. (1991). The continuing significance of race: Antiblack discrimination in public places. American Sociological Review, 56, 101-116.
Green, D. P., Strolovitch, D. Z., & Wong, J. S. (1998). Defended neighborhoods, integration, and racially motivated crime. American Journal of Sociology, 104, 372-403.
Hein, J. (2000). Interpersonal discrimination against Hmong Americans: Parallels and variations in microlevel racial inequality. The Sociological Quarterly, 41, 413-429.
that was one of my points. talkin to people in mpls and milwaukee, there were issues that were hmong (thanks)-specific in terms of racism and discrimination that other cities never even considered, given that they don't have large numbers of laotian immigrants to factor in...
I don't know if Eric was trying to say this, but I think people outside of America are confused as to how Americans have been able to live with George Bush as the leader of their country. Richard Nixon was impeached & dude looks like the love child of Ghandi & Einstein compared to George Bush.
Nixon was not impeached--he resigned.
Bill Clinton and Andrew Johnson are the only two American presidents ever to have been impeached.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
It's true that there has always been some level of cultural exchange between nations, but travelling was often reserved for merchants, the upper class, intellectuals or artists.
Comments
I don't cosign Noixe's statement at all, which is as ignorant of European reality as some Europeans are of American reality.
Arguably, the biggest social issue in Europe right now is race. What stinks about some things I've heard from across the pond about NOLA is that, if you go to many European countries the conditions of Africans and Muslims are not much different than American Blacks and the disregard is the same. I can't tell you how many times Europeans (of many diff countries) have told me the big problem is immigrants who are just there to bleed social services, they don't want to work, they just come and take take take. Hmmmmmmmm sound familiar?
Anyways no beef it is an interesting discussion and I got mad love for my Europeans!!!
Europeans and Americans have plenty in common, and neither want to examine the roots and address the complex issues that have arisen in our poorest areas. Homogeny is just not as prevelant a reality anymore in either Europe or America and people need to face up to it.
I know race is an issue in europe, but european countries are smaller and less complex. bush essentially played various race cards across the country to garner votes. he had a variety of cards to pull: keep blacks out of the suburbs, keep arab terrorists from crashing a plane into your silo, keep mexicans from taking your jobs and your tax dollars...dude won mad cuban votes by keeping up the embargo, which is different, but related. it's divide and conquer. you can't win an election in america by harping on immigrants. if you could, we'd have president pat "let's build a fence around america" robertson. the sheer size of america complicates it also. bush *can* divide and conquer because many people fear factions in an almost abstract sense. reagan's "welfare queen" bullshit played well to many people who had never met anyone on welfare.
I get the sense the european race problem is a little more simplistic. it's no less tragic and ignorant, and no less of a problem, but its effect on politics would be more basic in a country with fewer people and fewer large minorities.
and if I'm fucking wrong, let me know.
(ok, well you're oversimplifying Europe's problems).
Vous devriez ??tre plus gentil dans ce que vous dites de peuple ici.
Ils sont bless??s et font tout ils bidon pour aider les victimes
d'ouragan. Infact, nous avons soulev?? presque $100.000. Quand vous
dites quelque chose comme le ce, vous semblez juste comme ignorant que
George Bush.
I'm american as fuck.
Just for the record, on my block - one small block in one part of East London - there are Filipinos, Somalis, Koreans, Chinese, Australians, South Africans, Bangladeshis, Croats and Eritreans. Oh, and English as well. You'll probably find it's much the same throughout the rest of Europe. Not trying to get into a pissing contest; merely pointing out that most developed countries, or at least the big conurbations therein, tend to be pretty cosmopolitan nowadays.
Having visited a bunch of different parts of America, including the South, and not just the tourist hubs, it didn't take long for me to learn there's a big difference between the American government (whatever its hue) and the American people, and that it's actually kinda lazy to base your judgement of the latter on your opinion of the former. That said, I don't think I'd ever risk getting too deep into a political conversation with an American on his/her own soil; "Hey, Bush may be an asshole, but he's our asshole!"
Delai,
Tres bien que tu sais user le point avec les nombres en Europe!
Rossi Le Cochon, Americain aussi
This is one impressed Quebecer!
j'ai eu de l'aide ?? partir de l'ordinateur ne suis pas trop impressionn??.
-sushedoggie
HI ROSS!
So you google translated this?
h
Then put this into your translator:
Rencontres-moi dans le parking, Jouet!
This is the stupidest thing I've heard in a while.
From wikipedia:
In France they're dead serious about the immigrant/race problem these days. It's becoming really aggressive from both sides. It's getting ugly. Take a look at these links:
http://www.limitstogrowth.org/WEB-text/france-immigration.html
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/446loxwa.asp?pg=1
I'm not agreeing with the ones who says immigration is the problem itself. The real problem is that people don't listen to each other anymore. In France, Germany and Netherlands we have had really aggressive riots the last years. It's not looking good.
I'm sharing a kitchen with 5 other appartments, and only one of them is Norwegian. We have the muslim, the latin american, the asian and the eastern european. The whole world is a melting pot today. It's always been.
whoa
Same thing on my block. There's a pot of ethnic gumbo cooking on my streets every day. I'm a testament to that myself - half haitian, half danish. Saying that America is a melting pot and Europe is not is a major misconception. Anyway, Europe might politically be moving towards a federal construction, but that does not mean that you can make general statements about the mentality on the continent.
There is a HUGE difference between, say, Sweden and Greece. Every country on the continent has it's own history and culture. Great Britain, The Netherlands, France, Spain, Portugal and others have a long colonial history which brought about a lot of migration from former colonies, like for example the large number of people from India, Jamaica a.o. in England. On top of this there's the 'ordinary' influx of immigrants and refugees coming from pretty much all over the world. In southern Europe, there are always people from various African countries crossing the Mediterreanean to find a new life on the other side. Historically there are many different reasons for the myriads of regional migrations.
In my country, there was a lot of turkish people coming here to work during the late 60s and throughout the 70s, because there was a shortage of labour. In the 80s we had a lot of refugees coming from places like Sri Lanka and Iran because of politically heated situations in their homelands. In the 90s the war in Bosnia and Somalia caused people to flee. And again, amidst people escaping political violence, there is always a steady flow of people just trying to escape poverty and dismal circumstances or just seeking fresh surroundings. So most countries here are ethnically very diverse.
My mother's side of the family fled from Port-Au-Prince to New York in the early 50s and are now spread out over the entire U.S. I've lived in and visited many parts of America many times, so I am well aware of the good as well as the bad sides. There are beautiful as well as ugly people, just like anywhere else in the world. But to blame a nation as an whole for having an idiot as their president is very shallow. Come on, we all know that it just ain't that simple! It's deep and I feel with all americans who are frustrated with a political system that they don't agree with. I even feel with the americans who agree with the system. 'Forgive them, Lord, for they know not what they do???'
We all like to poke fun at other countries, and that's cool as long as everybody knows what the real deal is when it boils down to serious business. At times like these we have to to put all those readymade opinions and stereotypes to rest. Erics post was ill-timed and too easy. Let's get past the dumb shit like 'all americans are stupid' or 'people from France are arrogant'. Get out of the trenches and get real, because that other shit is just a downward spiral. Much respect to J.Paycheck for keeping a level head even though I fully understand why people are tired of getting mud thrown in their face. Let's listen and learn from each other instead of throwing condescending views and fuckyous around.
And dumbass comments about somebodys ability to write in english need to stop. That's a real arrogant cheapshot. Grow up, people.
I thought this was america people?
Yeah, we really should be speaking Spanish!
Agreed. This is a major overstatement. 100 years ago we had people coming from Africa to Denmark as parts of travelling circuses, put in cages as freaks to amuse danes who had never seen anyone like that before
Let's get the facts straight. The movement of people within and outside Europe didn't seriously start until the collapse of the colonial system and the emergence of cheaper and easier travel, making migration an realistic option for many people who would never have dreamed of that before. We're talking maybe the last 50 years or so. When my mother came to Denmark in 1970 you better believe she stuck out like a sore thumb! My grandparents on my father's side were dumbfounded when he introduced her to them. People were still not used to seeing that many foreigners then. This has of course been different from country to country, depending on the history, but the whole melting pot thing is still a relatively new thing.
(Sorry for the thread-hogging, folks. I'm feeling David Banner as well).
You forgot slaves.
the so-called "melting pot" is large communities of several diverse cultures co-existing in one area. not several people of different ethnicities in one city.
serious does not equal complex.
I understand shit is real in france and that there are riots. but the situation in france speaks about France as a whole, and seems to be a fight between whites and muslims, with some black and jewish elements thrown in.
in america, every single large city has its own racial situation, largely unique to each city. madison and minneapolis have large communities of mung from thailand. chicago has the biggest polish community in the world. st. louis has a growing bosnian population. south florida has a giant cuban contingent. detroit has the biggest arab population in the country. every single locale has its own issues, and they differ greatly depending on where one is in the country.
that's what I meant by "more complex."
Mere presence of a group does not denotes its integration into the community. Numerical racial diversity has nothing to do with how the groups are accepted, as indicated by the racial discrimination endured regularly by Hmong people in western Wisconsin (see Hein, 2000). Here's the reference (and some others):
Feagin, J. R. (1991). The continuing significance of race: Antiblack discrimination in public places. American Sociological Review, 56, 101-116.
Green, D. P., Strolovitch, D. Z., & Wong, J. S. (1998). Defended neighborhoods, integration, and racially motivated crime. American Journal of Sociology, 104, 372-403.
Hein, J. (2000). Interpersonal discrimination against Hmong Americans: Parallels and variations in microlevel racial inequality. The Sociological Quarterly, 41, 413-429.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
that was one of my points. talkin to people in mpls and milwaukee, there were issues that were hmong (thanks)-specific in terms of racism and discrimination that other cities never even considered, given that they don't have large numbers of laotian immigrants to factor in...
Nixon was not impeached--he resigned.
Bill Clinton and Andrew Johnson are the only two American presidents ever to have been impeached.
And warrior races - Saxons, Vikings, Huns, etc.