Often times a .5db difference in volume can make people think one thing might sound better than the other, and the placebo effect is strong in audio. Very strong. The preamp in rane mixers is as good as many audiophile preamps or at least is using the same gain stage components. It's not like dudes are using discrete op-amps. And tubes? whole different story but rarely better from a spec standpoint.
As someone who used to hang out on the head-fi forums, I feel compelled to argue with you, but I agree. It is amazing how the more expensive equipment always sounds better right? But as someone who has never recorded any music and is just a scientist...my take is that, the sound quality is only as good as how well it is recorded and the general saying we have in process chemistry is that if you put shit in, you will get shit out. I don't know what studios use and it will vary for every single album I purchase, so the most important that I can do as a consumer is have a set up that maximizes my own enjoyment, with minimal flipping of switches and plugging and unplugging of cords. Since I have my turntables in the standard DJ setup, I decided that it would be a good idea to use the alternate output on my turntable. So my current listening set up is a TTX-1, optical out to an EMU-0404 which goes into a headphone amp (Jade Audiotailor, Little Dot mkIII, or Lunchbox Pro) and then into my headphones (Grado 325i, Sennheiser HD600, or AKG701). I chose the headphone route to maximize the sound quality while minimizing relative costs (ie, special power cords, cabling, power "conditioning") which have a minimal if not dubious effect on the sound.
Thanks edulus.
I feel like a dick when i type that stuff, but it's really the reality of the situation. A pair of nice headphones and an excellent headphone amp is a worthy investment, and driving headphones correctly is no small feet so headphone amp is crucial. Those Senn 600's are awesome.
Oh and Oliver, maybe you are familiar with the trend in the 70's of audiophiles not buying vinyl but buying reels of music (esp. classical) ?
Useful thread. I'm in the process of researching (half-heartedly) a listening set-up. Turntables I think I've got covered, but what about speakers/amps? I'd like to spend less than $2,500 and like the idea of floorstander speakers, which I think will suit my large open-concept living room-dining room the best.
This local place seems to make the process easy, but I'm not sure about value: https://www.planetofsoundonline.com/systems/. They offer a Marantz SR4023 Receiver, Pro-Ject Xpression III Turntable, and Knight 5 Speakers for two grand.
Anyway, I'm grateful for whatever thoughts the strut may have on this. I just want a good set-up to listen to my records.
You might want to check this out: I picked up a pair of PSB floorstanding speakers and a NAD amp per their recommendations and am happy. Good place to start for new stuff at least. http://www.avguide.com/buyers-guides
^^ Planet of Sound is Gunner's op and he's a good dude and knows his stuff. My Rega P5 used to be his own Rega P5 until about 7 yrs ago when I got him in a moment of weakness. Unfortunately the whole deal for Gunner, which is fine, is catering to boomers who are leaking $ out their butts, know next to nothing about putting a system together, and want to be spoonfed something that works. Gunner delivers, but he charges a premium for the service and it's ridiculous how little selection he offers.
WRT decks, alot of it is sex appeal, but for me the most important feature is the needle and the tonearm. Floating decks drive me crazy. Stabillity is crucial, a heavy deck is a good deck. I saw this thing last week where the dude took an Technics Sp10, and mounted into a wood plinth he'd made that weighed 100 lbs. Not pretty but you could wack it pretty hard and you wouldn't hear a sound.
Here's the synopsis: It's a semi-automatic (auto-stop/return) direct drive, quartz-locked turntable, built in the same era as the 1200. It actually shares some of the same hardware as the 1200 but isn't built on the same "chassis" (unlike the 1700) and is slightly smaller and weighs about 30% less. Looks familiar though is even plainer than the 1200 but from what I've researched, it's well-made and a good, cheap alternative to someone who wants a non-DJ turntable that's still as reliable and performs close to the 1200.
I would have been happy to find a 1700 Mk. 2 as well (that's the quartz-locked version) but the Q2 was in immaculate condition and available. Now I can finally re-pair my two 1200s together instead of splitting them apart for digitizing purposes.
Off-topic, but I just clicked the link I posted earlier in the thread and this appeared at the bottom of the article:
Editors' Note: July 18, 2012
An earlier version of this article included quotations from Ryan Holiday of New Orleans discussing why he preferred vinyl records. The reporter reached Mr. Holiday through a Web site that connects reporters to sources on various topics.
Mr. Holiday, who has written a book about media manipulation, subsequently acknowledged that he lied to the Times reporter and to other journalists on a variety of subjects, fabricating responses to their online queries. (He says he does not own a turntable.)
Off-topic, but I just clicked the link I posted earlier in the thread and this appeared at the bottom of the article:
Editors' Note: July 18, 2012
An earlier version of this article included quotations from Ryan Holiday of New Orleans discussing why he preferred vinyl records. The reporter reached Mr. Holiday through a Web site that connects reporters to sources on various topics.
Mr. Holiday, who has written a book about media manipulation, subsequently acknowledged that he lied to the Times reporter and to other journalists on a variety of subjects, fabricating responses to their online queries. (He says he does not own a turntable.)
WTF?
haha, just saw the same thing when I was looking at this thread.
the only thing I have to add to this discussion is a story from when I worked at a high-end stereo store in Manhattan, just out of college. One day a guy bought a used pair of speakers for $15,000 and somehow I got stuck having to drive the van along with a stock guy to deliver them to his house, somewhere off the Grand Central Pkwy. We got there and the guy made us stand there for half an hour while he set the speakers up, the whole time we kept insisting they were good and we didn't have to wait for him to test them. Once he finished hooking up the speakers he says "let me just test it out real quick" and grabs a: Celine Dion CD. We bolted out of there before he could put it on.
In the market for a good setup, but I'm about to gauge my eyes out researching this shit.
Looking for a good, quality table that is wooded out to match the furniture. What about amp.... speakers... help. Don't make me go to stevehoffman.net or audio karma.
When I fucked up my 1200 by trying to replace the RCA's on my own (as detailed in this thread: http://www.soulstrut.com/forums/viewthread/78056/) I sent it in to KAB to fix that and I had them rewire the tonearm with Cardas wire as well. There was a definite improvement, everything sounds clearer and more immediate than it did stock. I'm curious about the fluid dampener as well. With just the tonearm rewire I'm convinced the 1200 is equal to any turntable below about 1500 dollars as long as you have a decent cart that is well matched to the rest of your system.
Lucked out a few monthes ago and across a mint-in-box version of one of these at a garage sale for 10 bucks:
Garrard is an overall "meh" brand but this thing plays like new and sounds about as good as the technics 1500 it replaced...but lets be honest. Its all about the look and auto-return action.
I prefer manual tables and use these devices that lift the tonearm after the record ends to prevent wearing out the stylus. The tonearm triggers the device when the record ends and lifts the tonearm up. They used to be cheap but have gotten expensive in the last few years:
I prefer manual tables and use these devices that lift the tonearm after the record ends to prevent wearing out the stylus. The tonearm triggers the device when the record ends and lifts the tonearm up. They used to be cheap but have gotten expensive in the last few years:
the belt was surprisingly tight and uncracked. not sure how that happened.
thanks for the heads up on that safety rasier. ill have to look into it should the technics make it back into rotation.
When I fucked up my 1200 by trying to replace the RCA's on my own (as detailed in this thread: http://www.soulstrut.com/forums/viewthread/78056/) I sent it in to KAB to fix that and I had them rewire the tonearm with Cardas wire as well. There was a definite improvement, everything sounds clearer and more immediate than it did stock. I'm curious about the fluid dampener as well. With just the tonearm rewire I'm convinced the 1200 is equal to any turntable below about 1500 dollars as long as you have a decent cart that is well matched to the rest of your system.
If you don't mind sharing, what was the cost on the Cardas rewiring? I'd seriously consider doing this if it's all worked out as you hoped.
When I fucked up my 1200 by trying to replace the RCA's on my own (as detailed in this thread: http://www.soulstrut.com/forums/viewthread/78056/) I sent it in to KAB to fix that and I had them rewire the tonearm with Cardas wire as well. There was a definite improvement, everything sounds clearer and more immediate than it did stock. I'm curious about the fluid dampener as well. With just the tonearm rewire I'm convinced the 1200 is equal to any turntable below about 1500 dollars as long as you have a decent cart that is well matched to the rest of your system.
If you don't mind sharing, what was the cost on the Cardas rewiring? I'd seriously consider doing this if it's all worked out as you hoped.
I had the stock RCA cables and circuit board removed and replaced with an RCA output jack plate along with the tonearm rewire for $170 + shipping. If you are good with a soldering iron and have the patience you can probably DIY it for a third of that, but it was totally worth it for someone as electronically challenged as myself.
One big thing is that most modern amps are not made with vinyl/analogue in mind. It's worth looking at a vintage amp if you really want to get the most out of your records. Something like an Arcam Delta amp with built in MM/MC phono would set you back $300 max and sound as good/better than most new amps at 10x that price.
There are a ton of nice vintage turntables out there for good money. For new turntables, I think the project/Nad ones are pretty safe bet since they are basically Rega clones but if you want auto this and that then maybe not for you.
When I fucked up my 1200 by trying to replace the RCA's on my own (as detailed in this thread: http://www.soulstrut.com/forums/viewthread/78056/) I sent it in to KAB to fix that and I had them rewire the tonearm with Cardas wire as well. There was a definite improvement, everything sounds clearer and more immediate than it did stock. I'm curious about the fluid dampener as well. With just the tonearm rewire I'm convinced the 1200 is equal to any turntable below about 1500 dollars as long as you have a decent cart that is well matched to the rest of your system.
If you don't mind sharing, what was the cost on the Cardas rewiring? I'd seriously consider doing this if it's all worked out as you hoped.
I had the stock RCA cables and circuit board removed and replaced with an RCA output jack plate along with the tonearm rewire for $170 + shipping. If you are good with a soldering iron and have the patience you can probably DIY it for a third of that, but it was totally worth it for someone as electronically challenged as myself.
good to know...thanks man...i'm a novice when it comes to this type of work, so i'd happily pay the $170.
Nice, Raj. I really like Thorens a lot. I have a TD-160 super that I picked up on craigslist for cheap and I've been using it happily for many years. I like that it has mostly manual features. The auto stuff tends to break, at least on the older tables.
So, how's the sound? Are you happy with your purchases?
Cosign on the older amps being better for phono stage.
Comments
As someone who used to hang out on the head-fi forums, I feel compelled to argue with you, but I agree. It is amazing how the more expensive equipment always sounds better right? But as someone who has never recorded any music and is just a scientist...my take is that, the sound quality is only as good as how well it is recorded and the general saying we have in process chemistry is that if you put shit in, you will get shit out. I don't know what studios use and it will vary for every single album I purchase, so the most important that I can do as a consumer is have a set up that maximizes my own enjoyment, with minimal flipping of switches and plugging and unplugging of cords. Since I have my turntables in the standard DJ setup, I decided that it would be a good idea to use the alternate output on my turntable. So my current listening set up is a TTX-1, optical out to an EMU-0404 which goes into a headphone amp (Jade Audiotailor, Little Dot mkIII, or Lunchbox Pro) and then into my headphones (Grado 325i, Sennheiser HD600, or AKG701). I chose the headphone route to maximize the sound quality while minimizing relative costs (ie, special power cords, cabling, power "conditioning") which have a minimal if not dubious effect on the sound.
I feel like a dick when i type that stuff, but it's really the reality of the situation. A pair of nice headphones and an excellent headphone amp is a worthy investment, and driving headphones correctly is no small feet so headphone amp is crucial. Those Senn 600's are awesome.
Oh and Oliver, maybe you are familiar with the trend in the 70's of audiophiles not buying vinyl but buying reels of music (esp. classical) ?
Don't. Your posts are informative and interesting. It's also refreshing to hear some of the audiophile myths get debunked.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/19/technology/personaltech/how-to-enjoy-turntables-without-obsessing-over-them.html?_r=2
4yeargraduate: what cartridge do you recommend?
You might want to check this out: I picked up a pair of PSB floorstanding speakers and a NAD amp per their recommendations and am happy. Good place to start for new stuff at least. http://www.avguide.com/buyers-guides
WRT decks, alot of it is sex appeal, but for me the most important feature is the needle and the tonearm. Floating decks drive me crazy. Stabillity is crucial, a heavy deck is a good deck. I saw this thing last week where the dude took an Technics Sp10, and mounted into a wood plinth he'd made that weighed 100 lbs. Not pretty but you could wack it pretty hard and you wouldn't hear a sound.
Here's the synopsis: It's a semi-automatic (auto-stop/return) direct drive, quartz-locked turntable, built in the same era as the 1200. It actually shares some of the same hardware as the 1200 but isn't built on the same "chassis" (unlike the 1700) and is slightly smaller and weighs about 30% less. Looks familiar though is even plainer than the 1200 but from what I've researched, it's well-made and a good, cheap alternative to someone who wants a non-DJ turntable that's still as reliable and performs close to the 1200.
I would have been happy to find a 1700 Mk. 2 as well (that's the quartz-locked version) but the Q2 was in immaculate condition and available. Now I can finally re-pair my two 1200s together instead of splitting them apart for digitizing purposes.
WTF?
haha, just saw the same thing when I was looking at this thread.
the only thing I have to add to this discussion is a story from when I worked at a high-end stereo store in Manhattan, just out of college. One day a guy bought a used pair of speakers for $15,000 and somehow I got stuck having to drive the van along with a stock guy to deliver them to his house, somewhere off the Grand Central Pkwy. We got there and the guy made us stand there for half an hour while he set the speakers up, the whole time we kept insisting they were good and we didn't have to wait for him to test them. Once he finished hooking up the speakers he says "let me just test it out real quick" and grabs a: Celine Dion CD. We bolted out of there before he could put it on.
Looking for a good, quality table that is wooded out to match the furniture. What about amp.... speakers... help. Don't make me go to stevehoffman.net or audio karma.
KAB makes nice and relatively affordable drop-in wooden housings for 1200s:
They also have extensive audio upgrades if you're so inclined.
https://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/m1200.htm
Turns out it's the in amp to have.
Any 70s Marantz should be a nice amp in the $200+/- range.
Garrard is an overall "meh" brand but this thing plays like new and sounds about as good as the technics 1500 it replaced...but lets be honest. Its all about the look and auto-return action.
I prefer manual tables and use these devices that lift the tonearm after the record ends to prevent wearing out the stylus. The tonearm triggers the device when the record ends and lifts the tonearm up. They used to be cheap but have gotten expensive in the last few years:
the belt was surprisingly tight and uncracked. not sure how that happened.
thanks for the heads up on that safety rasier. ill have to look into it should the technics make it back into rotation.
i dont know how to feel about that.....
Might be cool for novelty purposes, but I would deathly afraid about playing my raers on that.
No, dust cover? I have an active household with kids and dogs.... don't play ball in house.
I had the stock RCA cables and circuit board removed and replaced with an RCA output jack plate along with the tonearm rewire for $170 + shipping. If you are good with a soldering iron and have the patience you can probably DIY it for a third of that, but it was totally worth it for someone as electronically challenged as myself.
One big thing is that most modern amps are not made with vinyl/analogue in mind. It's worth looking at a vintage amp if you really want to get the most out of your records. Something like an Arcam Delta amp with built in MM/MC phono would set you back $300 max and sound as good/better than most new amps at 10x that price.
There are a ton of nice vintage turntables out there for good money. For new turntables, I think the project/Nad ones are pretty safe bet since they are basically Rega clones but if you want auto this and that then maybe not for you.
good to know...thanks man...i'm a novice when it comes to this type of work, so i'd happily pay the $170.
[strong]Thorens TD-165[/strong]
Wanted a 160, but they go for too much money these days... 165 is essentially the same except for a few small differences but cost me $250 vs. $600
Heathkit AR-15 Stereo Receiver:
ADS L520 Speakers
All ebay purchases based on research. We'll see how it goes.
So, how's the sound? Are you happy with your purchases?
Cosign on the older amps being better for phono stage.