Based on what you're saying then I do think Jones/Dap-Kings are the obvious link you're looking for. It is true, early in their career, their sound was more JB-style but by their 2nd and 3rd albums, they had begun to shift to more '60s soul influences and it's obviously not random that Mark Ronson hired the Daptone Horns to back Winehouse - Daptone had already established themselves as THE crew who could "pull off that sound."
I think Willis/Soul Investigators are relevant here too but they were far more off people's radars, I'm guessing partially because Timmion was out of Finland vs. the U.S. There was also the Quantic Soul Orchestra, The Bamboos and a whole host of other British, Australian and U.S. retro-funk artists but to me, it's House Daptone that "forecast" the way for Winehouse to blow up (besides Amy's own particular gifts).
I'd also add, it's hardly the case that BIB was going to be any more successful than "Frank" was (and for real, how many U.S. listeners heard/remembered "Frank" prior to BIB? Exactly.)
In a not-hard-to-imagine alternative universe, Winehouse drops BIB and it goes nowhere, thus flipping the entire narrative of an "avalanche" or "culmination" on its head.
Batman, just out of curiosity, who would you group in with AW as part of the retro-soul sound? Adele? Janelle Monae? Bruno Mars?
I havent really thought of the "Roster" that clearly but now Raphael Saddiq an d R.Kelly are wearing 60's suits and hand clapping.
Janelle Monee seems to be using the look but not really trying to be Diana Ross per se.
She along w/ Mars seems to be mixing it up w/ modern shit and retro flavors.
Duffy and Adele fit in.
And i recall a couple of young UK sisters doin it as well. I know Bassie posted some chick doin this shit.
To me, there are two different kinds of retro soul.
One would be the "neo soul" thing that mined the 70s - India.Arie, Anthony Hamilton. The other is the whole Daptone-type sound - Amy Winehouse, Sharon Jones & the Dap-Kings, and I guess I could awkwardly lump Joss Stone in with this faction as well.
Neo-soul - primarily black audience, slightly more modern sound, stands a better chance of getting played on the radio.
Daptone - white collectors and indie-rock kids. Aside from Winehouse, very little radio impact, if any.
When Joss Stone first came out, seems like her primary audience was white baby boomers. She gradually neo-souled her sound over the next couple of albums. I don't know what she's up to now.
Batman, just out of curiosity, who would you group in with AW as part of the retro-soul sound? Adele? Janelle Monae? Bruno Mars?
I havent really thought of the "Roster" that clearly but now Raphael Saddiq an d R.Kelly are wearing 60's suits and hand clapping.
Janelle Monee seems to be using the look but not really trying to be Diana Ross per se.
She along w/ Mars seems to be mixing it up w/ modern shit and retro flavors.
Duffy and Adele fit in.
And i recall a couple of young UK sisters doin it as well. I know Bassie posted some chick doin this shit.
I think we're talking about artists who have made it to the mainstream consciousness to some degree, right?
I think Amy's more Phil Spector inspired stuff was some what her personal preference and partially the influence of the indie scene people she was hanging out with in London, who were also making similarly inspired music around this time but in a rock context. Valerie, one of her biggest hits, is a cover of indie band The Zutons.
After BIB sold well, record companies came with the inevitable clone, Gabriella Cilmi & similar acts like Duffy & Adele. Even Amy tried to bring out a young protege named Dionne Bromfield.
Since then, we've had plenty more try their hand, even a couple of white dudes have given it a crack, but I don't think any would make it over the pond. Here's one of the latest Selah Sue.
And current Ronson collaborator Rox
Then there's all the people doing the retro funk / soul thing. Although they're mostly pretty straight up soulfunk and not crossover acts, but are pretty Winehoose like.
Dojo Cuts feat Roxie Ray
Ruby Velle & The Soulphonics do the retro thing pretty well.
Hannah Williams and the Tastemakers
Charles Bradley's been doing his thing on Daptone for a while now, backed by various groups of white boys. The Bamboos have also been around, doing their thing with various vocalist since the begining of the 00s. Martha High put out a good lp last year backed by Uk group Speedometer. Deep Street Soul, Quantic And Alice Russell, Sugarman 3, Soul Snatchers, The Impellers, Osaka Monaurail. There's loads of them.
I'd also add, it's hardly the case that BIB was going to be any more successful than "Frank" was (and for real, how many U.S. listeners heard/remembered "Frank" prior to BIB? Exactly.)
In a not-hard-to-imagine alternative universe, Winehouse drops BIB and it goes nowhere, thus flipping the entire narrative of an "avalanche" or "culmination" on its head.
I don't really get what you're trying to say here.
When Joss Stone first came out, seems like her primary audience was white baby boomers. She gradually neo-souled her sound over the next couple of albums. I don't know what she's up to now.
I'd also add, it's hardly the case that BIB was going to be any more successful than "Frank" was (and for real, how many U.S. listeners heard/remembered "Frank" prior to BIB? Exactly.)
In a not-hard-to-imagine alternative universe, Winehouse drops BIB and it goes nowhere, thus flipping the entire narrative of an "avalanche" or "culmination" on its head.
I don't really get what you're trying to say here.
I was trying to suggest that Amy Winehouse's success wasn't so much a "culmination" of a trend, as if retro-soul was inevitably powering towards some kind of tipping point and was guaranteed to blow up.
Instead, I'd argue that her and Ronson and Remi managed to adapt a sound - already out there via Daptone and others - and were lucky enough to strike gold with it. But it wasn't preordained that retro-soul would have a big moment.
I'd also add, it's hardly the case that BIB was going to be any more successful than "Frank" was (and for real, how many U.S. listeners heard/remembered "Frank" prior to BIB? Exactly.)
In a not-hard-to-imagine alternative universe, Winehouse drops BIB and it goes nowhere, thus flipping the entire narrative of an "avalanche" or "culmination" on its head.
I don't really get what you're trying to say here.
I was trying to suggest that Amy Winehouse's success wasn't so much a "culmination" of a trend, as if retro-soul was inevitably powering towards some kind of tipping point and was guaranteed to blow up.
Instead, I'd argue that her and Ronson and Remi managed to adapt a sound - already out there via Daptone and others - and were lucky enough to strike gold with it. But it wasn't preordained that retro-soul would have a big moment.
yeah, i think this is about right. the sound already had a cult/niche following, it just needed the right songwriting / front-person / marketing for the stars to align, which is exactly what happened w/Amy.
I'd also add, it's hardly the case that BIB was going to be any more successful than "Frank" was (and for real, how many U.S. listeners heard/remembered "Frank" prior to BIB? Exactly.)
In a not-hard-to-imagine alternative universe, Winehouse drops BIB and it goes nowhere, thus flipping the entire narrative of an "avalanche" or "culmination" on its head.
I don't really get what you're trying to say here.
I was trying to suggest that Amy Winehouse's success wasn't so much a "culmination" of a trend, as if retro-soul was inevitably powering towards some kind of tipping point and was guaranteed to blow up.
Instead, I'd argue that her and Ronson and Remi managed to adapt a sound - already out there via Daptone and others - and were lucky enough to strike gold with it. But it wasn't preordained that retro-soul would have a big moment.
yeah, i think this is about right. the sound already had a cult/niche following, it just needed the right songwriting / front-person / marketing for the stars to align, which is exactly what happened w/Amy.
Sure. I think the kind of retro soul sound has always had a market in white suburbia and therefor the potential to be a pretty big one, but I think just retro for retro sake is never really going to sell that well. Like willie_fugal sais, you really need to have something, or someone unique fronting it that makes it relevant to modern consumers who aren't into cult or niche. More specifically, it has to connect with modern women, cause they're the ones who make these records go platinum. That's how Adele's second lp goes on to sell 27 million copies worldwide, breaking numerous world records and making one of the most successful female artists ever.
I don't consider Adele's music (on either album) to be as consistent with the same kind of retro soul sound that Daptone (and by extension) Amy Winehouse worked with. Absolutely, there are Shirley Bassey and Dusty Springfield influences but I don't feel like anyone would confuse Adele's songs with music that might have come out in 1968.
Adele is more like a classic, big voice pop diva who put together a killer ballad (hence explaining the last album's success). In that respect, she has more in common with Mariah Carey or Whitney Houston even if her sound bed certainly draws on soul influences. But she's not retro in my book.
I don't consider Adele's music (on either album) to be as consistent with the same kind of retro soul sound that Daptone (and by extension) Amy Winehouse worked with. Absolutely, there are Shirley Bassey and Dusty Springfield influences but I don't feel like anyone would confuse Adele's songs with music that might have come out in 1968.
Adele is more like a classic, big voice pop diva who put together a killer ballad (hence explaining the last album's success). In that respect, she has more in common with Mariah Carey or Whitney Houston even if her sound bed certainly draws on soul influences. But she's not retro in my book.
I think nowadays anything soulish with a live drummer is considered retro.
I don't consider Adele's music (on either album) to be as consistent with the same kind of retro soul sound that Daptone (and by extension) Amy Winehouse worked with. Absolutely, there are Shirley Bassey and Dusty Springfield influences but I don't feel like anyone would confuse Adele's songs with music that might have come out in 1968.
Adele is more like a classic, big voice pop diva who put together a killer ballad (hence explaining the last album's success). In that respect, she has more in common with Mariah Carey or Whitney Houston even if her sound bed certainly draws on soul influences. But she's not retro in my book.
Didn't we just agree that, really, outside of the nostalgia vultures and the anomaly of AW there isn't really a retro-soul thing anyway, just a bunch of loose threads. I mean, Joss Stone is fairly accepted as some what of a precursor to retro-Amy, but you wouldn't mistake the songs on her first lp for tracks from the 60s, even the ones that were originally recorded in the era.
Adele gets mentioned because she came along in Amy's wake and there are similarities. She's also a talented musician and songwriter, who's luckily signed to a label that value such things, so it's unlikely she's going to jump, or be pushed, onto a bandwagon - only to be forgotten about like all the other Amy-lites that came and went. So whilst there are definitely retro leanings to her sound and image, that undoubtably comes from the influence of Amy, she's obviously not going for full on retro.
My point of bringing her up was that, if AW can sell a million records and all she was was mearly a front woman for The Dap-Kings, then surely they, Sharon Jones or similar should shift similar figures. Obviously they don't, and I guess that's down to the fact that retro for retro's sake doesn't connect with people beyond a niche. In particular it doesn't connect with women who buy cds by people like Adele, or I guess, at a push, Whitney and Maria.
Amy's personal life was also a daily tabloid fixture in the UK "Press" which also hyped her beyond whatever "Music Styleways" her album contained. She had a unique style about her that girls over here copied to some extent. The fact that she looked like a bag of bones held together with tattoos and that she took masses of drugs also got her bonus points from the "Cool" press.
I think Sharon Jones has talked about being turned down by labels when she was young for not being "photogenic" enough. And certainly her whole story doesn't really fit a media friendly narrative - 50-something ex-prison guard turned retro soul singer doesn't sell tabloids the way Amy Winehouse did. I'd say the main difference is that Daptone just doesn't have the PR (or payola?) machine necessary to really break out into the mainstream, but they've grown steadily over the years to the point that Sharon Jones now does international tours, so at least they've broken out of the niche they started in, no doubt aided by the success of Amy Winehouse.
Amy's personal life was also a daily tabloid fixture in the UK "Press" which also hyped her beyond whatever "Music Styleways" her album contained. She had a unique style about her that girls over here copied to some extent. The fact that she looked like a bag of bones held together with tattoos and that she took masses of drugs also got her bonus points from the "Cool" press.
Sharon Jones has this against her.
I'm pretty sure Amy's personal life didn't become an issue for the press until she had blown up. Might be wrong there.
In the UK there has been a pretty consistent level of success for retro soul stretching back to the Brand New Heavies at the start of the 90s, followed by Jamiroquai, Joss Stone and then Amy. The thing that all these had in common was that they were marketed as contemporary acts rather than retro soul acts. The success of the the Dap Kings has been unusual in that they haven't, but then again in the UK, they've never built to the level they have elsewhere.
I don't consider Adele's music (on either album) to be as consistent with the same kind of retro soul sound that Daptone (and by extension) Amy Winehouse worked with. Absolutely, there are Shirley Bassey and Dusty Springfield influences but I don't feel like anyone would confuse Adele's songs with music that might have come out in 1968.
Adele is more like a classic, big voice pop diva who put together a killer ballad (hence explaining the last album's success). In that respect, she has more in common with Mariah Carey or Whitney Houston even if her sound bed certainly draws on soul influences. But she's not retro in my book.
Didn't we just agree that, really, outside of the nostalgia vultures and the anomaly of AW there isn't really a retro-soul thing anyway,.
On the contrary. I absolutely think there is a "retro-soul thing." This was a subject of an essay I wrote for a pop music anthology last year to make a long story short, you can trace a pretty clear network of labels and personnel, beginning in the early 1990s through present day, that aren't just connected by aesthetic similarities and goals but the same players/musicians who end up working on each other's projects. Whether or not anyone wants to call it a "movement" or not ultimately gets into a semantic debate over what constitutes a "movement" or not but I think, by any reasonable measure, there's been a "retro soul thing" going back nearly 20 years.
My point - which I guess I'm doing a poor job of explaining - is that retro-soul has always been a niche thing and was never threatening to crest into the mainstream. That's what made Amy Winehouse an outlier. She borrowed from the scene and blew up with it, leading a host of artists afterwards to try the same formula (Raphael Sadeeq, LIttle Jackie, Solange). But what I was suggesting, in response to Batmon's original post, is that Amy's success wasn't part of a momentum of succeses building towards her moment.
Back to Adele/Amy: the two absolutely share similarities. Both came out of the same singing school for one thing (same one that all the big British female soul singers have come out of). And I think it's fair to say that Amy's success made things easier for Adele. But as someone who enjoyed both of Adele's albums, I never really thought of them as obviously retro-inspired projects. Purely subjective opinion; I don't think it's a slam dunk case that she's NOT retro. I just don't hear it, personally.
Comments
I think Willis/Soul Investigators are relevant here too but they were far more off people's radars, I'm guessing partially because Timmion was out of Finland vs. the U.S. There was also the Quantic Soul Orchestra, The Bamboos and a whole host of other British, Australian and U.S. retro-funk artists but to me, it's House Daptone that "forecast" the way for Winehouse to blow up (besides Amy's own particular gifts).
In a not-hard-to-imagine alternative universe, Winehouse drops BIB and it goes nowhere, thus flipping the entire narrative of an "avalanche" or "culmination" on its head.
I havent really thought of the "Roster" that clearly but now Raphael Saddiq an d R.Kelly are wearing 60's suits and hand clapping.
Janelle Monee seems to be using the look but not really trying to be Diana Ross per se.
She along w/ Mars seems to be mixing it up w/ modern shit and retro flavors.
Duffy and Adele fit in.
And i recall a couple of young UK sisters doin it as well. I know Bassie posted some chick doin this shit.
And Mayer Hawthorne's first album.
One would be the "neo soul" thing that mined the 70s - India.Arie, Anthony Hamilton. The other is the whole Daptone-type sound - Amy Winehouse, Sharon Jones & the Dap-Kings, and I guess I could awkwardly lump Joss Stone in with this faction as well.
Neo-soul - primarily black audience, slightly more modern sound, stands a better chance of getting played on the radio.
Daptone - white collectors and indie-rock kids. Aside from Winehouse, very little radio impact, if any.
When Joss Stone first came out, seems like her primary audience was white baby boomers. She gradually neo-souled her sound over the next couple of albums. I don't know what she's up to now.
I think we're talking about artists who have made it to the mainstream consciousness to some degree, right?
Adding Aloe Blacc.
After BIB sold well, record companies came with the inevitable clone, Gabriella Cilmi & similar acts like Duffy & Adele. Even Amy tried to bring out a young protege named Dionne Bromfield.
Since then, we've had plenty more try their hand, even a couple of white dudes have given it a crack, but I don't think any would make it over the pond. Here's one of the latest Selah Sue.
And current Ronson collaborator Rox
Then there's all the people doing the retro funk / soul thing. Although they're mostly pretty straight up soulfunk and not crossover acts, but are pretty Winehoose like.
Dojo Cuts feat Roxie Ray
Ruby Velle & The Soulphonics do the retro thing pretty well.
Hannah Williams and the Tastemakers
Charles Bradley's been doing his thing on Daptone for a while now, backed by various groups of white boys. The Bamboos have also been around, doing their thing with various vocalist since the begining of the 00s. Martha High put out a good lp last year backed by Uk group Speedometer. Deep Street Soul, Quantic And Alice Russell, Sugarman 3, Soul Snatchers, The Impellers, Osaka Monaurail. There's loads of them.
I was trying to suggest that Amy Winehouse's success wasn't so much a "culmination" of a trend, as if retro-soul was inevitably powering towards some kind of tipping point and was guaranteed to blow up.
Instead, I'd argue that her and Ronson and Remi managed to adapt a sound - already out there via Daptone and others - and were lucky enough to strike gold with it. But it wasn't preordained that retro-soul would have a big moment.
yeah, i think this is about right. the sound already had a cult/niche following, it just needed the right songwriting / front-person / marketing for the stars to align, which is exactly what happened w/Amy.
Adele is more like a classic, big voice pop diva who put together a killer ballad (hence explaining the last album's success). In that respect, she has more in common with Mariah Carey or Whitney Houston even if her sound bed certainly draws on soul influences. But she's not retro in my book.
I think nowadays anything soulish with a live drummer is considered retro.
Adele gets mentioned because she came along in Amy's wake and there are similarities. She's also a talented musician and songwriter, who's luckily signed to a label that value such things, so it's unlikely she's going to jump, or be pushed, onto a bandwagon - only to be forgotten about like all the other Amy-lites that came and went. So whilst there are definitely retro leanings to her sound and image, that undoubtably comes from the influence of Amy, she's obviously not going for full on retro.
My point of bringing her up was that, if AW can sell a million records and all she was was mearly a front woman for The Dap-Kings, then surely they, Sharon Jones or similar should shift similar figures. Obviously they don't, and I guess that's down to the fact that retro for retro's sake doesn't connect with people beyond a niche. In particular it doesn't connect with women who buy cds by people like Adele, or I guess, at a push, Whitney and Maria.
Sharon Jones has this against her.
I'm pretty sure Amy's personal life didn't become an issue for the press until she had blown up. Might be wrong there.
In the UK there has been a pretty consistent level of success for retro soul stretching back to the Brand New Heavies at the start of the 90s, followed by Jamiroquai, Joss Stone and then Amy. The thing that all these had in common was that they were marketed as contemporary acts rather than retro soul acts. The success of the the Dap Kings has been unusual in that they haven't, but then again in the UK, they've never built to the level they have elsewhere.
On the contrary. I absolutely think there is a "retro-soul thing." This was a subject of an essay I wrote for a pop music anthology last year to make a long story short, you can trace a pretty clear network of labels and personnel, beginning in the early 1990s through present day, that aren't just connected by aesthetic similarities and goals but the same players/musicians who end up working on each other's projects. Whether or not anyone wants to call it a "movement" or not ultimately gets into a semantic debate over what constitutes a "movement" or not but I think, by any reasonable measure, there's been a "retro soul thing" going back nearly 20 years.
My point - which I guess I'm doing a poor job of explaining - is that retro-soul has always been a niche thing and was never threatening to crest into the mainstream. That's what made Amy Winehouse an outlier. She borrowed from the scene and blew up with it, leading a host of artists afterwards to try the same formula (Raphael Sadeeq, LIttle Jackie, Solange). But what I was suggesting, in response to Batmon's original post, is that Amy's success wasn't part of a momentum of succeses building towards her moment.
Back to Adele/Amy: the two absolutely share similarities. Both came out of the same singing school for one thing (same one that all the big British female soul singers have come out of). And I think it's fair to say that Amy's success made things easier for Adele. But as someone who enjoyed both of Adele's albums, I never really thought of them as obviously retro-inspired projects. Purely subjective opinion; I don't think it's a slam dunk case that she's NOT retro. I just don't hear it, personally.