What's the best horn section ever...and where does the Afrika 70 rank?

downtownrobbrowndowntownrobbrown 446 Posts
edited December 2012 in Strut Central
I think we all know who's on top of the mountain as far as this goes unless someone wants to argue against the JBs.

But who's second place? Where does the Afrika 70 rank?

Thanks!
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  Comments


  • jamesjames chicago 1,863 Posts
    Phenix Horns for second.

    Can't speak on Afrika 70. I've never really gotten into Fela.

  • below MFSB, Tower of Power & Chicago.

  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    We need some more parameters.

    I'm going with the Kind Of Blue horn section of Coltrane Adderley.

  • As much as I love both JB and Fela, neither were known for having very good horn sections. On a technical level both would not rate very high at all.

    And it's Africa 70 with a 'c'.

  • FrankFrank 2,373 Posts
    Horseleech said:


    And it's Africa 70 with a 'c'.

    Actually, it's not....















    Only a few titles use the spelling with a "c":





    edit:

    looking into it some more, I guess both ways are right:








    As to who technically had the best horn section, who cares?
    Celluloid lowered Fela's sax in the mix when they put out his records because they thought his playing sucked...

    Danialou Sagbohan who in the very early 70s had a residency at the Kakadu, the same venue where Fela played at the time, told me how one day Fela decided to kick out his sax player and to learn the instrument himself. According to Sagbohan he climbed up a mango tree in the venue's courtyard and said he wouldn't come down before he hadn't mastered the instrument...

    So yeah, technically speaking anybody who had spent a decade academically studying the instrument and honing their skills as a studio/session player would probably be considered a much better player. Technically. However, when it comes to channeling and transporting emotion, which is what music is really all about, I guess it's clear who would win.

  • jjfad027jjfad027 1,594 Posts


    Pretty tight on this one

  • Frank said:
    looking into it some more, I guess both ways are right

    Yeah, somehow the 'k' looked wrong in the header and the handful of albums I had handy to check all had it spelled with a 'c'.

  • FrankFrank 2,373 Posts
    Horseleech said:
    Frank said:
    looking into it some more, I guess both ways are right

    Yeah, somehow the 'k' looked wrong in the header and the handful of albums I had handy to check all had it spelled with a 'c'.

    Funny, in my mind it was always with a "k", probably because my favorite records use this spelling.


  • FlomotionFlomotion 2,391 Posts
    Based on today's listening EWF, Kool and the Gang and even Blood Sweat and Tears are all up there.

    Edit: now listening to Ohio Players. Them too.

  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    The Memphis Horns were not the best players, but they played some of the best horn fills on some of the best records.

  • Brass Construction

  • skelskel You can't cheat karma 5,033 Posts
    The dudes on the Alice Clark record

    B/w

    Dusko Gojkevic's mob on Trumpets & Rhythm Unit

  • DanteDante 371 Posts
    the skatalites (or the various ensambles now known as) have to be up there with the best:


  • This thread should probably be titled "What music with horns is really good?".

    The JBs, Fela and the Skatalites aren't especially good horn sections, but all three have made some of my favorite music ever.

    And, Jazz records aside, there aren't a whole lot of cracking horn sections that made music I really love.

  • ppadilhappadilha 2,244 Posts
    I'm not an expert on salsa (the music, not the sauce) but I would think The Fania All-Stars would be on that list somewhere, no? Or Fruko y Sus Tesos?

    I like Fela's sax playing - Gentleman is one of my favorite Fela songs, and that features him on sax. I get my Fela timeline confused in terms of who was playing on which record, but from what I remember the Afrika 70 stuff with Igo Chico and Lekan Animashaun still there was the best.

  • ppadilhappadilha 2,244 Posts
    Horseleech said:
    This thread should probably be titled "What music with horns is really good?".

    The JBs, Fela and the Skatalites aren't especially good horn sections, but all three have made some of my favorite music ever.

    And, Jazz records aside, there aren't a whole lot of cracking horn sections that made music I really love.

    that's true. I was going to say something about Eddie Palmieri but it's not like he had a fixed horn section, right? It really comes down to who's composing and arranging the horns, you don't have to be that talented to play on a horn section unless you're a soloist. But I'm still a sucker for anything that has blistering horns on it.

  • DanteDante 371 Posts
    Horseleech said:


    The JBs, Fela and the Skatalites aren't especially good horn sections, but all three have made some of my favorite music ever.


    ohmygosh. the skatalites are, imo, the tightest of those three. i agree that 'good' horn sections don't necessarily make great music or viceversa, but the individual expertise of each skatalite and of them as a 'section' is undeniable, imo.

  • LaserWolf said:
    The Memphis Horns were not the best players, but they played some of the best horn fills on some of the best records.

    this.
    I gotta root for the home team...when you are looking for HUGE hooks played with soul and those horns take over the song and become its defining element? thats a good horn section.


  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    The_Hook_Up said:
    LaserWolf said:
    The Memphis Horns were not the best players, but they played some of the best horn fills on some of the best records.

    this.
    I gotta root for the home team...when you are looking for HUGE hooks played with soul and those horns take over the song and become its defining element? thats a good horn section.


    That's what I am talking about.

  • Votes for Please (sing a simple song) and The Pieces of Peace (pass it on pt.2). Boscoe too.

    Afrika 70 gets points for the choreography.

    Kool & the Gang probably my favorite, with their schoolyard-style lines.

  • GropeGrope 2,970 Posts
    i (euroman) like(s) rhythm combination and brass (peter herbolzheimer). very clean and good use and sound of horns. maybe too clean

    otherwise i love africa 70.

  • ppadilhappadilha 2,244 Posts
    not trying to say they're the best horn section ever, but I cream my pants a little every time this song hits the 3:12 mark:


  • RishanRishan 454 Posts
    If it qualifies I'd like to include the Jazz Messengers line up of Shorter, Hubbard and Fuller

  • tabiratabira 856 Posts




    Also The Beginning of the End for Funky Nassau and Come Down Baby

  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    LaserWolf said:
    We need some more parameters.

    I'm going with the Kind Of Blue horn section of Coltrane Adderley.

    Oops. I forgot Davis.

  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    Horseleech said:
    As much as I love both JB and Fela, neither were known for having very good horn sections. On a technical level both would not rate very high at all.


    This has been bothering me.
    JB's are not technically good?
    How so?
    Fred, Maceo, St Clair, Pee Wee, those cats can play.
    Are you talking about the sophistication of their charts as compared to MFSB or EW&F? I can see that.

    The JBs horns were brilliant at finding a groove and not letting up. IMO.
    They were also brilliant at simultaneously playing tight and loose. IMO.
    Numerous James Brown melodies and hooks were lifted from the horn section, often without attribution.
    I think being funky is technically different, not inferior, to being sophisticated or complex.

    Anyway, I'd be interested to know why you think they are not very good.
    I'd also like to know why people think their choices are the best.
    What is it about Brass Construction or Kool & Gang that makes you think they are the best?

  • The JB's are pretty unfuckwitable

    But Grope mentioned Herbolzeimer and he is another god of brass, just always has something worthwhile to say:



    another is Kenny Clark/ Francy Boland Band. Amazing arrangements, always sounding like a much smaller band then it is, and with guys like Sahib Shihab....

  • kalakala 3,361 Posts
    also Kashmere Stage Band and the dapkings ain't too shabby

  • LaserWolf said:
    Horseleech said:
    As much as I love both JB and Fela, neither were known for having very good horn sections. On a technical level both would not rate very high at all.


    This has been bothering me.
    JB's are not technically good?
    How so?
    Fred, Maceo, St Clair, Pee Wee, those cats can play.
    Are you talking about the sophistication of their charts as compared to MFSB or EW&F? I can see that.

    The JBs horns were brilliant at finding a groove and not letting up. IMO.
    They were also brilliant at simultaneously playing tight and loose. IMO.
    Numerous James Brown melodies and hooks were lifted from the horn section, often without attribution.
    I think being funky is technically different, not inferior, to being sophisticated or complex.

    Anyway, I'd be interested to know why you think they are not very good.
    I'd also like to know why people think their choices are the best.
    What is it about Brass Construction or Kool & Gang that makes you think they are the best?

    You know, I'm not going to answer this because it will just devolve into semantics argument over what 'good' means and that won't go anywhere.

    I also didn't say that I didn't think they were very good, I said that they wouldn't rate as 'best ever'. There's a pretty big range between the two.

    As I mentioned before, the JBs, Fela and the Skatalites have made some of my favorite music ever. But when I listen to it my reaction isn't "damn, this is a great horn section' - it's more of an emotional gut reaction to how great the music is.

    On the other hand, when I listen to Peter Herbolzheimer (who I like, but not nearly as much) I do think "Damn, those horns are crisp".

    Listening to music in order to admire the virtuosity involved just isn't a big thing for me. Not to say that I never do it, it's just not my favorite thing.

  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    Horseleech said:
    LaserWolf said:
    Horseleech said:
    As much as I love both JB and Fela, neither were known for having very good horn sections. On a technical level both would not rate very high at all.


    This has been bothering me.
    JB's are not technically good?
    How so?
    Fred, Maceo, St Clair, Pee Wee, those cats can play.
    Are you talking about the sophistication of their charts as compared to MFSB or EW&F? I can see that.

    The JBs horns were brilliant at finding a groove and not letting up. IMO.
    They were also brilliant at simultaneously playing tight and loose. IMO.
    Numerous James Brown melodies and hooks were lifted from the horn section, often without attribution.
    I think being funky is technically different, not inferior, to being sophisticated or complex.

    Anyway, I'd be interested to know why you think they are not very good.
    I'd also like to know why people think their choices are the best.
    What is it about Brass Construction or Kool & Gang that makes you think they are the best?

    You know, I'm not going to answer this because it will just devolve into semantics argument over what 'good' means and that won't go anywhere.

    I also didn't say that I didn't think they were very good, I said that they wouldn't rate as 'best ever'. There's a pretty big range between the two.

    As I mentioned before, the JBs, Fela and the Skatalites have made some of my favorite music ever. But when I listen to it my reaction isn't "damn, this is a great horn section' - it's more of an emotional gut reaction to how great the music is.

    On the other hand, when I listen to Peter Herbolzheimer (who I like, but not nearly as much) I do think "Damn, those horns are crisp".

    Listening to music in order to admire the virtuosity involved just isn't a big thing for me. Not to say that I never do it, it's just not my favorite thing.

    I wasn't looking for a fight.
    Just asking what you were talking about, which you explained above. Thank you.

    I like seeing what people like and don't like, but I am interested in knowing why.
    So when someone says "As much as I love both JB and Fela, neither were known for having very good horn sections." I am interested in knowing why. Thank you for explaining.

    I was also asking other posters, some of whom only posted a name of a band, how they came to their choices.
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