Post-Punk and No Wave

bropsbrops 182 Posts
edited August 2005 in Music Talk
I gotta say I've always loved what happened with punk around 1979. I feel post-punk and no wave are two sub genres of punk that corporated the DIY/anarchistic principles of punk with principles from black music. I think this is why I don't like the original punk sound, but really loves both post-punk and no wave. But I'm wondering if it's only me that thinks about it like this. In post-punk I hear a lot of disco, of course, and in no wave I hear the bongo drums of early funk and the freedom of jazz artists like Miles Davis, Sun Ra and Ornette Coleman in the early 70s. For me this is the reason why I have no problem playing "Get Down" by Curtis Mayfield and "Set-Up" by Au Pairs in the same set. I even might could play them right after each other. Am I right, or am I just being silly now?

I love discussions about how genres develope, so feel free to give your two cents about everything around this.
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  • DrWuDrWu 4,021 Posts
    The movie Downtown 81 documents this confluence nicely. The live performances of Kid Creole, James Black and Lester Bowie from Defunct are exactly that mix of punk and soul that made that era so interesting.

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    The movie Downtown 81 documents this confluence nicely. The live performances of Kid Creole, James Black and Lester Bowie from Defunct are exactly that mix of punk and soul that made that era so interesting.



  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts


    Check this comp out for a example of NOWAVE stuff.
    GREY has some tracks on there. GOMMA Label.

  • FatbackFatback 6,746 Posts
    The movie Downtown 81 documents this confluence nicely. The live performances of Kid Creole, James Black and Lester Joseph Bowie from Defunct are exactly that mix of punk and soul that made that era so interesting.

  • erewhonerewhon 1,123 Posts
    I agree that with a lot of post-punk there was a self-conscious attempt to revisit the "funkier", "blacker" side of rock n' roll. But I think that partly arose out of a misconception or a mutual forgetting within the punk scene that the original punk sound was derived from "principles of black music" just as much as the post-punk stuff. To me, it's more a matter of punks starting to emulate the james brown side of things as much as the chuck berry/bo diddley side of things.

  • DrWuDrWu 4,021 Posts
    The movie Downtown 81 documents this confluence nicely. The live performances of Kid Creole, James Black and Lester Joseph Bowie from Defunct are exactly that mix of punk and soul that made that era so interesting.

    Funny I said to myself "which Bowie was it again" when typing this and was just too lazy to fact check. thanks for the correction.

  • I gotta say I've always loved what happened with punk around 1979. I feel post-punk and no wave are two sub genres of punk that corporated the DIY/anarchistic principles of punk with principles from black music. I think this is why I don't like the original punk sound, but really loves both post-punk and no wave. But I'm wondering if it's only me that thinks about it like this. In post-punk I hear a lot of disco, of course, and in no wave I hear the bongo drums of early funk and the freedom of jazz artists like Miles Davis, Sun Ra and Ornette Coleman in the early 70s. For me this is the reason why I have no problem playing "Get Down" by Curtis Mayfield and "Set-Up" by Au Pairs in the same set. I even might could play them right after each other. Am I right, or am I just being silly now?

    I love discussions about how genres develope, so feel free to give your two cents about everything around this.

    Hi

    I was into a lot of this stuff at the time in the uk, the au pairs and the like were the aftermath/progression of punk and were followed by what were more my bag then such as 23 skidoo, a certain ratio, stimulin, and also the us stuff like james chance, mars, etc that you refer to. this era was ignored in the uk at least until the last couple of years and the interest seems to be really flourishing, i found it strange at first when a certain ratio cd's were coming out as you literally could not give the originals away let alone sell them to anyone.

    the groups we're talking about always made references to black music - and through what they did and said - i discovered electric miles, sun ra, ornette, curtis as above, plus they ref'd can, coltrane, sonny rollins, parliament, fela, chic (yup)...

    going to see the acts at the time was pretty revoultionary to a teenager at and then just out of school - 23 skidoo live in a small club of 50 people promoting 'seven songs', one bass player, 6 percussionists and a trumpet player grooving for over an hour in a rough reference to 'gospel comes to new guinea' with psychedelic projections on top of them, followed by a gap in percussion where vietnam tapes and propaganda were played followed by another 45 minutes of percussion, the visuals getting darker all the time with art/propaganda/antiwar projections and films played across the stage area, no stage lights so the band were just shirtless shapes vibing around the stage. not a word said to the audience throughout, in fact most of the band had their backs to the crowd (ala miles...) totally hypnotic. a couple of years later test department were doing similar things on a grander scale. there was also a group called 'or was he pushed' that were fairly similar to a certain ratio and were great live, and in their early mid/late 80's gigs chakk had something to say. funkapolitan were stictly for the fashion nerds tho' even if they were on vaguely similar grounds.

    the one group that must be revived and i'm not sure if they've been ref'd anywhere in this revival yet are the pop group from the late 70's. they were real originators and the forerunners of a lot of this avante garde interest in the uk, out of the bristol scene with rip, rig and panic. their recordings are still threatening and inspiring to this day, and they really were quite a frightening experience live onstage, and they also had a healthy lean towards dub. the memories of these concerts at those times are as clear as ones at the time such as sun ra and parliament/funkadelic, in their own way they really were as effective in what they did.

    if you don't own 'for how much longer do we tolerate mass murder' or 'we are time' lp's by the pop group, seek them out, along with 23 skidoo 'seven songs', a certain ratio's 2nd lp 'sextet', as 4 of the best examples of this time - bearing in mind 'this time' scans from late 70's to early mid 80's, so the latter day spouting of a punk funk scene that i've heard and read is often bullshit, the gang of four had no connection to 23 skidoo for example, they were recording at different times. there was no movement as such, just disparate groups of people in different areas at different times that musically had things in common occasionally. and i never even mentioned early scritti politti 12's before they sold out by signing to a major, as did ACR, at least in our eyes back then.

    anyway, just some memories from the uk, tell me to shut up if u like

    peace -P

  • bropsbrops 182 Posts
    That's a great post. Thanks!

    I know about The Pop Group, but haven't really checked them out (just downloaded a few songs). I'll take a closer look. You should check out, if you don't already know about it, this site; http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~edge/pop_group/juke/. It's a guy who posts a lot of rare tracks by The Pop Group and connected bands. Some great stuff.

  • That's a great post. Thanks!

    I know about The Pop Group, but haven't really checked them out (just downloaded a few songs). I'll take a closer look. You should check out, if you don't already know about it, this site; http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~edge/pop_group/juke/. It's a guy who posts a lot of rare tracks by The Pop Group and connected bands. Some great stuff.

    looks good. i often wonder what my parents thought when i had the 4 posters from 'for how much longer...' on my bedroom wall as a youth 'escapism is not freedom' 'there are no spectators, you participate whether you like it or not', 'nixon and kissinger should be tried for war crimes', 'children born with unacclaimed joy', 'no-one is innocent and no-one will be forgiven', 'who guards the guards, who polices the police', 'Ireland is our practice ground, our very own vietnam' militant stuff for a young boys mind... and they really did mean it maaaan... i note they have not reformed for the $$$$ unlike some so-called rebels from those times

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts


    Even though its not NOWAVE but PUNKFUNK. I like R&B/Funk's responses to NewWave.

  • DubiousDubious 1,865 Posts















  • SPlDEYSPlDEY Vegas 3,369 Posts
    anyway, just some memories from the uk, tell me to shut up if u like

    peace -P

    Bye all means, any other reccomendations from this period. I'm familliar with all the artists you mentioned. I can't get enough of A certain ratio. I love 23 skiddoo, before they got all weird. I wish I knew more about this stuff but i was pretty much a baby when it was coming out.

    - spidey

  • FatbackFatback 6,746 Posts
    i picked up some of those early Human League 12s recently. Had no idea how out they were.

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    DNA
    LYDIA LUNCH
    MARS
    KONK
    MOFONGO

  • bropsbrops 182 Posts
    Konk is probably one of my favorites from this periode. There you got that funk I'm talking about. Another favorite is ESG.. I first got into this when I heard them, before I'd only heard the more known stuff like Gang of Four, etc.

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    Another favorite is ESG...

    ESG is from that period but I dont put them in the NO WAVE catagory.


    but dont take my word for it.


  • DubiousDubious 1,865 Posts

  • OlskiOlski 355 Posts
    When I started going to discos at 15 that was the sound at the "hip new disco" in our town. So dancing to Liquid Liquid and ESG and "The Message" and New Order and The Clash and Burundi Black and A Certain Ratio and The Wire and Human League and Yello and Malcolm McLaren and Gang of 4 and some Specials in one night was a natural thing to me. And has kept me "open-minded" to this day.

    I still have all this records and I still love them. BUT when I got into funk, soul and hip-hop this was the last stuff that I would listen to. It all became robotic anti-funk music to me. I that's what some it was suposed to be! It's only been a few years that I started to appreciate it for what it is again.

    It's real funny when you start digging in your own past and buy records that you passed on some 15 or 20 years ago as new releases.

  • i recently pulled out my old copy of cabaret voltaire 'voice of america', 'stay out of it' is some pretty out there funk. 'metal box' from PiL was quite a groundbreaker at the time. who else ever sounded like the associates? the great thing about these groups is although they wore their influences on their sleeves, they made such major changes to the formulas they took that they created something new. and as well as quoting funk/jazz/soul references, many of these groups were massively influenced by disco pioneers such as larry levan and vince montana.

    a lot of these bands changed their sound when they all got snapped up in the rush of the majors signing anything that had a synth and a wedge haircut. human league as said were quite experimental at first but became another lump of ear candy for the masses alongside ABC and other boring nothingness, the cabs went all overproduced, ACR went well, a bit bland, they all had to eat so you can't knock them but i think time is telling us that their earlier works were their finest. scritti politti's early and later releases are so unrelated it's like they became a different group altogether, but we'd all lost interest by then - green from scritti was the first person i ever read about in an interview who was raving about this music he'd heard on a NYC visit the previous week- something called 'hip-hop' and 'hip-house', and 'breakdancing'... then we were hit by these new 12's on pirate radio and suddenly 'hip-hop' and 'rap' were household words...

  • 8 Eyed Spy

  • edith headedith head 5,106 Posts
    BIG BIG BIG cosign on The Pop Group. I love Y, that cut-up sounding dubby dancey punk shit is my favorite thing evar. Rough Trade was so unstoppable in the 80s. I think that is my favorite label.

    Also, check out Josef K


    here are two killer songs:

    "Heads Watch"
    "the Angle"

    And Essential Logic which is post-X Ray Spex Lora Logic's better sounding band




    "The Order Form"
    "Aerosol Burns"

  • if we're including dubby post-punk,
    you have to mention The Slits,
    no matter how obvious.
    Cut is a timeless record.

  • bropsbrops 182 Posts
    ESG is from that period but I dont put them in the NO WAVE catagory.



    I wouldn't call it no wave either.. it's more post-punk, if you think about the relationship to Madchester and the work they did with Martin Hannett, but most of all they probably just did their own thing and has sooner been categorized (as they've all been).



    Why did I forget Liquid Liquid? And Bush Tetras? And THIS HEAT?

  • bassiebassie 11,710 Posts


    And Bush Tetras?

    so good.


  • LazerLazer 796 Posts


    doin' "Give It Up Or Turn It Loose"

  • edith headedith head 5,106 Posts
    okay, i just discovered this amazing collection of live photos from a shitload of new wave/punk bands from the late 70s early 80s

    www.newwavephotos.com

    unfortunately, i cannot link to any of the photos but i'd say everyband mentioned in this thread is in the gallery AND THEN SOME

  • LazerLazer 796 Posts
    okay, i just discovered this amazing collection of live photos from a shitload of new wave/punk bands from the late 70s early 80s

    www.newwavephotos.com

    unfortunately, i cannot link to any of the photos but i'd say everyband mentioned in this thread is in the gallery AND THEN SOME

    HA! I see no Black Randy!!!!!

  • i seem to remember 'eyeless in gaza' and 'maximum joy' being on my home playlist at some point but the records are long gone.

    how young do ACR look??!!




  • bropsbrops 182 Posts
    I have a few nice 7"s as well... Mo-Dettes - White Mice/Masochistic Opposite and Fatal Microbes - Violent Grows/Beautiful Pictures.

    Have you heard The Bureau? It's a side-project or something from some of the guys in Dexy's Midnight Runners... sounds like a hybrid between Barry White and Dexy's
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