Jay-Z and Kanye Settle with Syl over The Joy

staxwax

I think the lawsuit was mentioned somewhere in DJ Sheeps' Syl Johnson post a while back - glad to see Syl got paid. I wonder how much they settled for?

In October, we reported that Chicago soul singer Syl Johnson had filed a lawsuit in Illinois federal court against Jay-Z and Kanye West for sampling one of his songs on Watch the Throne without proper clearance. According to TMZ, the lawsuit has been settled.

The suit was filed after the Throne included "The Joy" on the deluxe edition of WTT without clearing Johnson's "Different Strokes". Legal documents filed this week indicate that the lawsuit was dismissed after the two sides reached a settlement. Additional details about the settlement were not made available.

Johnson is a veteran of sample-based lawsuits, having taken the Wu-Tang Clan, Cypress Hill, Kid Rock, and even Michael Jackson to court.

Pitchfork article

DocMcCoy

I'm trying to remember what he said about it in Sheep's article, but the impression I got from the TMZ piece was that what happened was they tried to clear the use for MBDTF and missed the deadline, so they decided to use it on Watch The Throne instead. What seems to have taken place is a breach of the conditions of approval, which is a bit naughty. If they decided that they weren't going to leave it in the vault but were going to use it on an entirely different album, then they should have politely asked Syl & his people if they'd be willing to approve it on the same terms. It seems Jay & Kanye assumed that an approval's an approval, so they didn't need to ask a second time. I guess that if you wanted to play hardball over the matter, you could interpret that as an unauthorised use, but most definitions of the term would involve cases where approval hasn't been sought at all (and it appears as though it was), or when approval wasn't granted, and the users pressed ahead with it anyway.

Let's assume for argument's sake that Syl was cool with the sample for the Kanye record. Any advances due to him would have been structured based on projected sales of that album. If a decision was made without Syl's approval to include it on an entirely different album where the projected sales (and, by extension, advances for samples, etc) were higher, then it's not unreasonable for him to think somebody's trying to pull a fast one. But I bet the reason they've settled is because if Syl had already granted approval and perhaps even issued a license, it becomes an issue of compensation for the breach of the original terms, rather than an entirely new infringement case. So they break him off a nice chunk of cash, everyone shakes hands and the world keeps turnin'...

pcmr

DocMcCoy said:

I'm trying to remember what he said about it in Sheep's article, but the impression I got from the TMZ piece was that what happened was they tried to clear the use for MBDTF and missed the deadline, so they decided to use it on Watch The Throne instead. What seems to have taken place is a breach of the conditions of approval, which is a bit naughty. If they decided that they weren't going to leave it in the vault but were going to use it on an entirely different album, then they should have politely asked Syl & his people if they'd be willing to approve it on the same terms. It seems Jay & Kanye assumed that an approval's an approval, so they didn't need to ask a second time. I guess that if you wanted to play hardball over the matter, you could interpret that as an unauthorised use, but most definitions of the term would involve cases where approval hasn't been sought at all (and it appears as though it was), or when approval wasn't granted, and the users pressed ahead with it anyway.

Let's assume for argument's sake that Syl was cool with the sample for the Kanye record. Any advances due to him would have been structured based on projected sales of that album. If a decision was made without Syl's approval to include it on an entirely different album where the projected sales (and, by extension, advances for samples, etc) were higher, then it's not unreasonable for him to think somebody's trying to pull a fast one. But I bet the reason they've settled is because if Syl had already granted approval and perhaps even issued a license, it becomes an issue of compensation for the breach of the original terms, rather than an entirely new infringement case. So they break him off a nice chunk of cash, everyone shakes hands and the world keeps turnin'...

mannybolone

One of the more memorable moments of my interview with Syl is when he was talking salty about Sly Stone, basically accusing him of 1) ripping off his name and 2) ripping off "Different Strokes" (for "Everyday People") and then saying, "how ya like me now?" and bragging that "Different Strokes" made it onto "Watch the Throne." I'm not sure if that sample really puts him "even" with Sly Stone but somewhere, Curtis Mayfield's spirt is mad.

ketan

mannybolone said:

One of the more memorable moments of my interview with Syl is when he was talking salty about Sly Stone, basically accusing him of 1) ripping off his name and 2) ripping off "Different Strokes" (for "Everyday People") and then saying, "how ya like me now?" and bragging that "Different Strokes" made it onto "Watch the Throne."

whoa

staxwax

It's funny that he would brag about 'making it on to watch the throne' - with the expected payment involved being the obvious point of bragging.
I'd be interested to find out which recording artist having been sampled and rediscovered through Hip Hop made the most money off the fact that they were sampled. Probably down to how good their representation was. Was it James that cashed the most? Or someone else, more unexpected? Does anyone know or have an idea about that?

mannybolone

staxwax said:

It's funny that he would brag about 'making it on to watch the throne' - with the expected payment involved being the obvious point of bragging.

That's not the impression I got. I think it was more that he was saying "my song has had a longer shelf life". I personally think that's a stretch; the prominent sample on that song isn't Syl but Curtis but hey, if it makes Syl happy, I'm hardly one to begrudge him that. I do think it's questionable whether or not he gets to claim "Different Strokes" as a catchphrase when, if I'm not mistaken, Muhammed Ali was the first to coin it. It may be that Sly and the Family Stone were inspired to work the phrase into their own song but "Everyday People" shares little in common with "Different Strokes" besides a single line. As Sly could have joked, "he made it a hot line, I made it a hot song" (except, of course, "Different Strokes" is a pretty hot song too).

DOR

staxwax said:

I'd be interested to find out which recording artist having been sampled and rediscovered through Hip Hop made the most money off the fact that they were sampled.

Lord Tariq and Peter Gunz use of the Steely Dan sample for Deja Vu was put in the paper for over $100 Grand. But my friend who works for Sony told me they had to pay a million for the uncleared sample.

DJ_Enki

DOR said:

staxwax said:

I'd be interested to find out which recording artist having been sampled and rediscovered through Hip Hop made the most money off the fact that they were sampled.

Lord Tariq and Peter Gunz use of the Steely Dan sample for Deja Vu was put in the paper for over $100 Grand. But my friend who works for Sony told me they had to pay a million for the uncleared sample.

Fagen and Becker gets down, baby! For the crown, baby!

Controller_7

Anybody else wonder why they didn't get Pete to come back into the studio and have him say Jay-z's name a few times. It's so awkward how it's obviously a kanye song that Jay jumped on after the fact.

soulmarcosa

mannybolone said:

I do think it's questionable whether or not he gets to claim "Different Strokes" as a catchphrase

"ALL SAMPLES CLEARED, BABY"

staxwax

DOR said:

staxwax said:

I'd be interested to find out which recording artist having been sampled and rediscovered through Hip Hop made the most money off the fact that they were sampled.

Lord Tariq and Peter Gunz use of the Steely Dan sample for Deja Vu was put in the paper for over $100 Grand. But my friend who works for Sony told me they had to pay a million for the uncleared sample.

Damn. does that make it the most expensive single sample usage ever? Steely Dan have gone on record stating thier disdain for sample based music. But what I really meant was - which artist do you think had the highest total earnings from being sampled?
Has to be James Brown, rigjht? Worth his weight in gold related?

SIRUS

a lot of james got used before biz was sued. wonder if he ever saw any of that late 80's $$$

SIRUS

man the joy has such a lazy use of a wonderful curtis song.

djsheep

http://weirdgear.wordpress.com/2011/08/27/syl-johnson-interview/

sticky_dojah

Fagen and Becker gets down, baby! For the crown, baby!

Jonny_Paycheck

DocMcCoy said:

I'm trying to remember what he said about it in Sheep's article, but the impression I got from the TMZ piece was that what happened was they tried to clear the use for MBDTF and missed the deadline, so they decided to use it on Watch The Throne instead. What seems to have taken place is a breach of the conditions of approval, which is a bit naughty. If they decided that they weren't going to leave it in the vault but were going to use it on an entirely different album, then they should have politely asked Syl & his people if they'd be willing to approve it on the same terms. It seems Jay & Kanye assumed that an approval's an approval, so they didn't need to ask a second time. I guess that if you wanted to play hardball over the matter, you could interpret that as an unauthorised use, but most definitions of the term would involve cases where approval hasn't been sought at all (and it appears as though it was), or when approval wasn't granted, and the users pressed ahead with it anyway.

Let's assume for argument's sake that Syl was cool with the sample for the Kanye record. Any advances due to him would have been structured based on projected sales of that album. If a decision was made without Syl's approval to include it on an entirely different album where the projected sales (and, by extension, advances for samples, etc) were higher, then it's not unreasonable for him to think somebody's trying to pull a fast one. But I bet the reason they've settled is because if Syl had already granted approval and perhaps even issued a license, it becomes an issue of compensation for the breach of the original terms, rather than an entirely new infringement case. So they break him off a nice chunk of cash, everyone shakes hands and the world keeps turnin'...

P**l, I'm wild tardy on responding to our PM convo, but just saw this and immediately thought of your post here.

http://allhiphop.com/2012/03/31/exclusive-kanye-hit-with-500000-lawsuit-over-sample/

what the article seems to be saying is that representatives of the Persuaders are suing Kanye for a mixtape usage of the "Girls Girls Girls (Remix)" beat that he produced for Jay-Z's Blueprint. The album usage was cleared.

We are really entering crazyland if artists are going to start suing rappers over free mixtape fodder, or worse yet - beat-jacks of totally 100% cleared samples from platinum albums. Jesus

Electrode

You'd think it would be a wiser, more cost effective idea to sample stuff that is a little more arcane. But then again, I don't wipe my ass with $100 bills...

ako

Electrode said:

You'd think it would be a wiser, more cost effective idea to sample stuff that is a little more arcane. But then again, I don't wipe my ass with $100 bills...

Jonny_Paycheck

You actually have to clear the arcane stuff too. :cry:

Dean R

staxwax said:

DOR said:

staxwax said:

I'd be interested to find out which recording artist having been sampled and rediscovered through Hip Hop made the most money off the fact that they were sampled.

Lord Tariq and Peter Gunz use of the Steely Dan sample for Deja Vu was put in the paper for over $100 Grand. But my friend who works for Sony told me they had to pay a million for the uncleared sample.

Damn. does that make it the most expensive single sample usage ever? Steely Dan have gone on record stating thier disdain for sample based music. But what I really meant was - which artist do you think had the highest total earnings from being sampled?
Has to be James Brown, rigjht? Worth his weight in gold related?

I've been involved or have knowledge of several cases where the sample rights have earned multiple $100 000s in dollars. But these have been for records that were massive worldwide pop hits - Dre, Aguilera, Lauren Hill. A million dollars would be rare but not unheard of, but for an average sized hit like Lord Tariq and Peter Gunz that would be very high.