Democracy in Africa and Beyond?
LaserWolf
Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
Old timers will remember that Vitamin used to make the argument that a democratic Iraq (via US invasion) would lead Iraq's neighbors, the Arab world, The Middle East, North Africa, to embrace democracy.
These last few weeks we have seen Egypt, Yemen, Libya, Bahrain and other nations calling for democracy.
What effect, if any, do people think the US invasion of Iraq has on pro-democracy demonstrators?
BTW: Last I checked Vitamin was reporting from Russia.
A shame because he used to live in Egypt, traveled extensively around the area, and his perspective would have been interesting.
These last few weeks we have seen Egypt, Yemen, Libya, Bahrain and other nations calling for democracy.
What effect, if any, do people think the US invasion of Iraq has on pro-democracy demonstrators?
BTW: Last I checked Vitamin was reporting from Russia.
A shame because he used to live in Egypt, traveled extensively around the area, and his perspective would have been interesting.
Comments
Work is nuts right now, so no time and any thread that cites Vitamin is not a thread for me.
I still would like to say two things that have been going through my mind a fair amount for the past couple of years or so:
Is democracy so great?
That democracy is not going to look the same thing or mean the same thing country to country.
Yep, so. Pretty obvious statements, right? But not at all givens.
LOL, I just deleted a WTF response before I read this
Peace!
it seems a lot of people through wikileaks finally saw how the rest of the world (US diplomats) saw their leadership - in countries where the state completely controls all media that was a real eye opener - that and popular revolt organised through social networks combined into the beginning of what happened in Tunis. That , and people setting themselves on fire in front of state buildings out of sheer desperation is apparently mainly what sparked the outrage and uprising in Tunis, which snowballed across the region. it has fuck-all to do with the US invasion of Iraq.
If observers in these countries were so impressed by Iraq then you might expect them to beg for US-led invasions. I didn't notice that happening.
Other questions could be asked, such as:
Is it possible "regime change" could have happened in Iraq without an invasion that cost a million lives?
Or:
Wasn't there a popular revolution in Iran 30+ years ago? What prompted that?
And I wouldn't throw the word "democracy" around just yet. I have no idea what's going to end up happening in any of these countries and I don't think anyone else does, either. Including Iraq, which is a muddled plutocracy/theocracy as much as anything else.
I guess the recent massive crop failures around the world had nothing to do with the prices going up.
And all that entails. (Not to leave the women out.)
Of course Maher used that theory to explain the available supply of suicide bombers and so forth. Maybe this unrest is the flip side.
smh
Right, because that's how the world works. Just look at Vietnam and Cambodia.
the domino theory is back!
Such a cool name it would suck to get rid of it.
clearly... but it's all neocons and tea partyists need to cite as proof their agenda was a success. those doofballs would buy it too.
you know a better alternative?
true but the differences are dwarfed by the basic similarities
Im wondering, will this magical democracy you mention come with fox news as well? goodie goodie.
I can think of some, yes. Do I know for sure? No, hence, two years of thinking about it on and off.
It took some a lifetime to grapple with what you seem to have figured out so effortlessly.
What are these "basic similarities"?
You certainly didn't grapple for a lifetime before figuring out so effortlessly in your thinly veiled assumption that I haven't given the subject matter as much soul-searching deliberation and cogitation over the years as you yourself have. ..all that for asking if you knew of a better alternative! Jeeeezus
being able to vote governments in and vote governments out by universal suffrage, separation of church, judiciary and the executive, ensuring institutional checks and balances in the legislature, dual chambers etc.
In the USA we don't vote governments in or out. Our government is always the same. Sometimes the executive branch is run by a democrat sometimes a republican, same for each of the houses of Congress. But the government never changes.
Many democracies do not have separation of church and state.
For a country like Iraq, with many different cultural groups, a strong central government (like Saddam's) may be better. Or at least more practical. One result of democracy in Iraq is the killing and forced removal and the marginalization of minorities.
From Wiki:The end of Saddam???s rule in 2003 truly opened the floodgates to the creation of completely homogenous areas made up of Sunnis, Shiites or Kurds. The Assyrian (aka Chaldo-Assyrian), Yezidi, Mandean, Shabak, Armenian, Roma and Turcoman minorities, were singled out for attacks by Arab Iraqi Islamic insurgents and terrorists (both Shia and Sunni) and to some degree by Kurdish nationalists.
It is easy to argue that Saddam was not good for some of these groups. He was not a nice guy. But his authoritarian style was well suited for holding a diverse country like Iraq together. Something that democracy has failed to do.
Citizens of Vatican City seem happy to be living under a monarchy with no separation of church and state.
On point.
It's hard to find a dictator with those qualities, though.
That much power would turn mit romney into rick james.... look a gadaffi... kim jong il.
The Iraq/Afghanistan wars were not isolated agendas for the Neo-Cons. Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney...all talked about Democracy in the Middle East. A long term, broad reaching influence had to be implemented. Mainly by supporting reformation groups in their respective countries. This is an Middle Eastern uprising...make no mistake of that. BUT, I can't doubt the influence of the US, International countries, and Saudi, Kuwait, UAE, Quatar (supported Iraq war behind closed doors) . I'm sure Obama has green-lighted some non-violent influence.
These monumental uprising...I'm completely in awe. it's unprecedented as far as I know. Serious History is being written. As nervous and concerned as I am, I'm really really excited for the Middle East!
Food prices are the least of the issues...but ballooning rapidly. Not just "over there", but everywhere. I'm restricting what I'm buy on every level...inflation is a turd.
The Theocratic control of most if not all Middle Eastern countries will never allow a true Democracy...it's pick and choose. Until there is separation of church and state... it'll be more of the same. LaserWolf has a point, Democracy isn't for everyone. I believe in Democracy, but is Democracy really the best system to lead a nation? An Islamic nation? True Democracy in the Middle East will take generations.
I love them "cult of personality" eccentric Dictators. Dying breed they are. Living under them, no love.
How about a Christian nation like the US?
Islam and democracy are not mutually exclusive. (yes, I know you are not saying that...or maybe you are?)
The US, what some may describe as a true democracy, has effectively prevented many nations, Islamic and otherwise, from realizing the wish of the people because it did not serve its interests. Iran is one example.
Not just there.
A lifetime would hardly be necessary for that.
I don't agree with this list.
And you may not agree with mine. In its most stripped down definition, I would describe it as majority rule, elects chosen by the general public.
My problem with it is what happens to the interests of the few when the many/the powerful/the elite/the most educated and savvy get final say?
It gets too messy. All ideologies do, right? Great in theory, a holy mess once humans get their hands on it.