What is raer hip hop?

batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
edited August 2005 in Strut Central
I'm wondering what falls underneath that catagory? When the Funk question was asked, that thread went on for days. I can't imagine that happening for Hip Hop. Unless its some "random rap" trash. There are singles out there from little local nyc upstarts from the early 80's that I havent come across in years but I'm curious to hear what cats present as
«1

  Comments


  • GropeGrope 2,970 Posts
    ...

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    Freestyle Professors... ?????????? I'D love to get one, but even the Japanese reish went above 50 this week!

    Who are they?

  • meatyogremeatyogre 2,080 Posts
    just like alot of good funk/soul singles... there was plenty of dope hip hop pressed in small numbers in the 80s and early 90s. Many of them are now sought after because they're dope. The scarcity of a record makes it rare. period. Also, rap records in general are hard to find in good condition, cuz hip hop DJs generally treated/treat their records like shit... which is gonna make the value of quality rap vinyls go up as the shit gets more collectible.

  • DelayDelay 4,530 Posts
    i really wish mylatency would come on and erase half the fuckin threads on this board right now.

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    i really wish mylatency would come on and erase half the fuckin threads on this board right now.
    I wish someone would erase half the fuckin dj mixes on this board right now.

  • i really wish mylatency would come on and erase half the fuckin threads on this board right now.
    I wish someone would erase half the fuckin dj mixes on this board right now.

    yikes

  • mannybolonemannybolone 15,030 Posts
    i really wish mylatency would come on and erase half the fuckin threads on this board right now.
    I wish someone would erase half the fuckin dj mixes on this board right now.










  • volumenvolumen 2,529 Posts
    Oh man it's the shit talking DJ's!!!!!!!

    I supose stuff like Stunts Blunts and Hip Hop. K-Rob Ramezzell etc. A lot of that CT stuff. Listen To My Turbo?

    I think a lot of the stuff that is rare/small pressing is also a lot of stuff that sucks. So no one really wants it. I found 2 crates of private press hip hop and it was dog shit. So while it was rare as far and number made I couldn't give half of it away. This isn't true for all, but a lot.


  • For the longest in hip-hop there wasn't really a commercial/underground distinction, something was successful if it did well on mixshows, it's much different from funk in that there wasn't any tour circuit to support recordings, either you made a dope record and got spun or you got forgotten. Sure, there's some gems that nobody cared about before, but most of that shit is trash, and is rare for a reason - if it was any good, it was getting spun. The real hardcore items are the things that got play but somehow didn't get pressed/purchased... A lot of these other discoveries, while interesting and/or nice, aren't really that important and/or good.

    Wouldn't you say, aside from the prices, rare rap & rare funk are two different animals?

  • Oh man it's the shit talking DJ's!!!!!!!

    Par for the course

    I think JP has broken it down most eloquently

  • mylatencymylatency 10,475 Posts
    i really wish mylatency would come on and erase half the fuckin threads on this board right now.
    I wish someone would erase half the fuckin dj mixes on this board right now.

    shut it, mouth

  • AaronAaron 977 Posts
    This thread can serve as a nice introduction the website I'm trying to put together (I need a scanner and access to the computer lab at the U before I get it up and running). I've said it before and I'll say it again: Send me some of your favorite hip-hop 12"s with a label/cover scan. I intend to put these up for people to weigh in on, like a ratings system similar to the one utilized by the "One Star Bandit."



    I'd prefer Real Audio, WMA, or lower-grade mp3.



    Send to [email]bott0067@d.umn.edu[/email]



    Unlike most of the people around here lately, I think there are definite gems out there that didn't ge tthe fair number of spins that the classics did (I'm talking to you JP, although I know you agree with me to a certain extent).



    Edit: I've been advised to limit the submissions to post-1986, so keep that in mind.

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    For the longest in hip-hop there wasn't really a commercial/underground distinction, something was successful if it did well on mixshows, it's much different from funk in that there wasn't any tour circuit to support recordings, either you made a dope record and got spun or you got forgotten. Sure, there's some gems that nobody cared about before, but most of that shit is trash, and is rare for a reason - if it was any good, it was getting spun. The real hardcore items are the things that got play but somehow didn't get pressed/purchased... A lot of these other discoveries, while interesting and/or nice, aren't really that important and/or good.

    Wouldn't you say, aside from the prices, rare rap & rare funk are two different animals?

    Thanks.

  • HAZHAZ 3,373 Posts
    Hi,

    I don't know if you've seen Freddy Fresh's book on raer hip hop - there are pics & a raerness rating system. Whether or not any of the music is worth hearing, I dunno. There's alot of hip hop wax that was pressed in limited quantities & was prolly not that easy to find when it dropped. Rap-A-Lot wax from the early 90's must have had a small pressing. You don't see Convicts & Scarface lps from that time often. I wouldn't count that as raer because its in print on CD, I think, & its widely known. I guess it all depends on your definition of raer - are you looklng for music seldom seen or rarely heard?

    Peace

    h

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    Hi,

    I don't know if you've seen Freddy Fresh's book on raer hip hop - there are pics & a raerness rating system. Whether or not any of the music is worth hearing, I dunno. There's alot of hip hop wax that was pressed in limited quantities & was prolly not that easy to find when it dropped. Rap-A-Lot wax from the early 90's must have had a small pressing. You don't see Convicts & Scarface lps from that time often. I wouldn't count that as raer because its in print on CD, I think, & its widely known. I guess it all depends on your definition of raer - are you looklng for music seldom seen or rarely heard?

    Peace

    h

    I'm not looking for anything raer to collect.

    I have Troubleneck Bros. 12" Back to the Hip HOP(Promo)version. the one w/ the samples from 80's classics. They only printed up a few. Is there a buzz for that shit..........or not?
    I would like to see what other cats consider raer, that all, st8 simple question.

  • HAZHAZ 3,373 Posts
    Hi,

    I don't know if you've seen Freddy Fresh's book on raer hip hop - there are pics & a raerness rating system. Whether or not any of the music is worth hearing, I dunno. There's alot of hip hop wax that was pressed in limited quantities & was prolly not that easy to find when it dropped. Rap-A-Lot wax from the early 90's must have had a small pressing. You don't see Convicts & Scarface lps from that time often. I wouldn't count that as raer because its in print on CD, I think, & its widely known. I guess it all depends on your definition of raer - are you looklng for music seldom seen or rarely heard?

    Peace

    h

    I'm not looking for anything raer to collect.

    I have Troubleneck Bros. 12" Back to the Hip HOP(Promo)version. the one w/ the samples from 80's classics. They only printed up a few. Is there a buzz for that shit..........or not?
    I would like to see what other cats consider raer, that all, st8 simple question.

    I was happy when I landed copies of the Kaos & Chosen Ones lps. I don't see those often & they're dope. I guess they'd be raer for me. The promo only stuff from the 90's is raer, IMO. Never seen a copy of Dj Quik's Way 2 Fonky on wax - that would be raer, if it exists. I have all the X Clan show vinyls. Show vinyls are tough come ups. I'd call 'em raer.

    h

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    I have Quik's Tonite 12''- so I guess Profile went forward w/ the vinyl....hmmmmmm. I never saw much of his wax here in NYC until RHYTHM-AL-ISM.

  • mannybolonemannybolone 15,030 Posts
    Batmon,

    This isn't a diss but your question is so vastly open-ended that I'm not sure our respones would be vaguely useful. If what you really want to know is: "is such and such 12" rare or not," then you should just ask the question directly as a rather than couch it as some casual query as to what's rare and what isn't.

    If you're asking what the current market seems to value (going by eBay and other key sites like specific dealers, stores, etc.) then I think there's some trends out there.

    1) Random rap from the 1980s - you might think this is trash and for certain, there is some insanely overpriced material right now but there's no question, this is the hot fad in hip-hop collecting right now. I think this will have to chill out after a while - I seriously cannot imagine in what reality a PDA In Effect will continue to sell for $100 - there are many legitimately A) good and B) rare items that will still likely command top dollar.

    Like that Freestyle Professors EP? That's going to go for loot for a minute (unless they turn up 100 sealed copies somewhere). For those who aren't familiar, it's a 1994 EP that Showbiz did production on. The beats (from the tracks I've heard) are fucking fierce, the rhymes are "ok." I don't know how many OG copies were pressed (Mao - you have a sense of this?) but at one point, the EP was selling for over $500. FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS. That's nuts. That's on some Phill Most Chill type loot.

    There are SOME parallels b/t this market and the funk 45 market but like JP said, you can't really compare the two after a certain point. I've been talking about this a lot with my friend Hua Hsu, who is far better tapped into random rap that I am, and he points out that the lack of compilations or a "Brainfreeze"-like phenom means that we probably won't see the same kind of insane interest in random rap as we did for funk 45s. He also thinks the number of people actively willing to pay $$$ for many of these items is significantly smaller than the funk 45 crowd at its height.

    I think we'd both agree, there's just a lot of trediness involved in collecting this shit right now and I'm certainly guilty of indulging in some of that myself. Then again, back when I was talking about titles with folks like Dave Tompkins and shopping at the now defunct Weekend Records (RIP) in Brooklyn, I should have been paying closer attention. Once the DJ Ivory, Edan, Skippy White and 7L mixtapes dropped around 2003-4, plus a few articles Big Daddy/Grand Slam, shit was on. Not as crazy as it was post-Brainfreeze, but still, as you can see now, pretty crazy.


    2) Old school rap from early '80s/late '70s. Again, there is some trediness involved here since there have been a handful of compilations raising awareness around it but in this case, you are definitely talking about music which is A) legitimately rare, B) local (and thus rare outside of that locale and C) relatively good depending on your tastes. This, however, is not going to be everyone's cup of tea, especially if you came of age in the 1990s or later. I'd like to think TJ Swann and PeeWee Mel rocked everyone's party but not necessarily.


    3) White label/promo-only 12"s from well-known Golden Era and post-New School artists (roughly 1988-1994). This is probably most familiar to folks since the trade in this has been going on for at least 10-15 years. This includes everything from the De La Soul's "Say No Go" test-pressing with the "Baby Huey Skit" to Nas' "Life's a Bitch" 12" to Pete Rock and CL Smooth's "T.R.O.Y." Vibe Mix, etc. Again, like any market, prices will ebb and flow on this though back in 1995, when I found a copy of Nas' "Life's a Bitch" promo, you could have gotten $100 for that and in 2005, I'm assuming that price has only gotten higher. Despite the preponderance of bootlegs of much of this material, the fact that the OGs are A) legitimatley rare and more importantly B) familiar to more people, means that the market on these goods will be pretty consistent over time.


    4) Japanese/European-only 12"s, post-new school. Much smaller market but given that a lot of this stuff wasn't distributed to the States, the demand here is decent enough to sustain some high prices on some items.

    5) Gangsta and/or regional rap singles and CDs. This is a much newer market, something that someone like Josh B could much easier break down than I, but basically, early singles from regional rap groups go for dumb loot. CDs are especially collectible, presumably from non-DJ collectors who want to own, for example, some random, out of print, Mac Mall CD. But it's not just gangsta rap - you see this with certain regional or niche artists, like the fact that people are paying over $100 for the first Aesop Rock or Binary Star CD. As noted, I think what's most interesting about this market is that there are many non-DJs who are fueling it, unlike the previous categories which tends to be made up of DJs looking for braggin' rights.


    Where the market seems soft:

    1) Golden Era/Post-New School party 12"s. It's hard to believe this now, but you used to be able to get $75 for "The Choice Is Yours." Demand was just very high for a lot of this material at one point but then the bootlegs and reissues came out and more to the point, new party records replaced the old ones and suddenly, no one really gave a fuck. I still see things like the commercial copy of "T.R.O.Y." hit the TSL wall for $40 or so, but that's really strictly for completionists. I don't know if party DJs, at this point, really care if they own the real thing or not.

    2) Indie 12"s from 1994 and beyond, aka, what I jokingly call "'90s random rap." Maybe it is just a matter of time until this market blows up. I actually have boxed up several hundred copies of stuff on Guesswhyld, Rawkus, Conception, etc. just out of curiosity to see if there actually MIGHT be a market for this stuff down the road but the main difference between the '80s and '90s is that '90s indie singles had far better distribution nationally and even internationally. It's not like the Diamond Mercernaries' "Diamonds Are Forever" 12" is a household item everywhere, but you're just as likely to find a copy in NY as you are in Chicago as you are in LA given how things circulated, unlike, say, the first Showbiz and AG EP which Show apparently sold out of his trunk.

  • DelayDelay 4,530 Posts
    i really wish mylatency would come on and erase half the fuckin threads on this board right now.



    your so tuff you're my new idol
    get off my dick

  • PEKPEK 735 Posts

    5) Gangsta and/or regional rap singles and CDs. This is a much newer market, something that someone like Josh B could much easier break down than I, but basically, early singles from regional rap groups go for dumb loot. CDs are especially collectible, presumably from non-DJ collectors who want to own, for example, some random, out of print, Mac Mall CD. But it's not just gangsta rap - you see this with certain regional or niche artists, like the fact that people are paying over $100 for the first Aesop Rock or Binary Star CD. As noted, I think what's most interesting about this market is that there are many non-DJs who are fueling it, unlike the previous categories which tends to be made up of DJs looking for braggin' rights.

    O -

    I think this extends to the early CD issues of '80s titles as well; the debut 3 Times Dope album on Arista as well as Schoolly-D's on Rykodisc command a steady premium as does Steady-B's 1st on Jive; not sure if the quasi-black market re-release of the Main Source has dampened the $ 100 + people were askin' for...

    My guesstimation is that the demand is partly driven by people who aren't interested whatsoever in vinyl and have grown up w/ CDs - this in turn is fueled by the fact that a lot of these titles didn't sell in great numbers @ the time and have yet to be reissued (if @ all); even the Poor Righteous Teachers albums on Profile sell decently - I've gotten $ 50 + for a sealed cutout of the 1st that I purchased cheap from a sale bin @ a clueless retailer...

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    Batmon,

    This isn't a diss but your question is so vastly open-ended that I'm not sure our respones would be vaguely useful. If what you really want to know is: "is such and such 12" rare or not," then you should just ask the question directly as a rather than couch it as some casual query as to what's rare and what isn't.


    Maybe I should have phrased it like the Funk post. I figured everyone would throw in their 2 cents about it..............Thanx

  • 2) I actually have boxed up several hundred copies of stuff on Guesswhyld, Rawkus, Conception, etc. just out of curiosity to see if there actually MIGHT be a market for this stuff down the road but the main difference between the '80s and '90s is that '90s indie singles had far better distribution nationally and even internationally. It's not like the Diamond Mercernaries' "Diamonds Are Forever" 12" is a household item everywhere, but you're just as likely to find a copy in NY as you are in Chicago as you are in LA given how things circulated, unlike, say, the first Showbiz and AG EP which Show apparently sold out of his trunk.

    That Diamond Mercenaries 12" is . Just found one like 2 or 3 weeks ago.

  • mannybolonemannybolone 15,030 Posts
    I think this extends to the early CD issues of '80s titles as well; the debut 3 Times Dope album on Arista as well as Schoolly-D's on Rykodisc command a steady premium as does Steady-B's 1st on Jive; not sure if the quasi-black market re-release of the Main Source has dampened the $ 100 + people were askin' for...

    My guesstimation is that the demand is partly driven by people who aren't interested whatsoever in vinyl and have grown up w/ CDs - this in turn is fueled by the fact that a lot of these titles didn't sell in great numbers @ the time and have yet to be reissued (if @ all); even the Poor Righteous Teachers albums on Profile sell decently - I've gotten $ 50 + for a sealed cutout of the 1st that I purchased cheap from a sale bin @ a clueless retailer...

    I think this is a pretty astute observation. It definitely has to do with a post-vinyl, CD-friendly audience who want to listen to this music but really don't want it on vinyl. The Main Source CD is an excellent example. Really blows my mind that this is that hard to find.

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    l
    get off my small dick




    Ease Back,son.

  • faux_rillzfaux_rillz 14,343 Posts
    Hi,

    I don't know if you've seen Freddy Fresh's book on raer hip hop - there are pics & a raerness rating system.

    It's not at all supposed to be a book on "raer" hip-hop, though; it's an attempt at a comprehensive list of all hip-hop releases between 1979 and ~1987.

    And you can pretty much ignore his rarity ratings--a lot of them are suspect.

  • mannybolonemannybolone 15,030 Posts
    Hi,

    I don't know if you've seen Freddy Fresh's book on raer hip hop - there are pics & a raerness rating system.

    It's not at all supposed to be a book on "raer" hip-hop, though; it's an attempt at a comprehensive list of all hip-hop releases between 1979 and ~1987.

    And you can pretty much ignore his rarity ratings--a lot of them are suspect.

    I also heard the rumor that FF doesn't own most of the rarest records he mentions - he cribbed his notes off of other collectors. I'm not calling him for that, only that the book's use as a definitive guide has to be taken with a grain of salt.

  • bull_oxbull_ox 5,056 Posts
    lurkers are having a fucking field day



    I agree that some things are better left unsaid...

  • bull_oxbull_ox 5,056 Posts
    I'm not looking for anything raer to collect.

    I also find it crazy that dude only started this thread to know what he could buy to resell.

  • mannybolonemannybolone 15,030 Posts
    No offense DD, but I really don't think I'm coughing up anything that isn't already that well known. I was pretty selective in which titles I dropped and I'm hepping cats to shit they probably already know about. I mean, the "Say No Go" test-pressing has only been around for 16 years and anyone who tracks random rap on eBay knows the Freestyle Professors shit has been selling like those Billy Wooten LPs were a while back.

    And seriously? If some toy ass lurkers want to go out and start buying up all the Diamond Mercenaries 12"s they want, more power to them. I know Supreme will be sitting back, laughing, and starting to count up his stacks.

    To put it another way, I didn't mention the titles I'm still looking for

    Just curious but what "gems" did you think I leaked? I seriously can't believe anyone who reads SS wasn't already aware of 90% of what I compiled here.

    lurkers are having a fucking field day



    I agree that some things are better left unsaid...

  • mannybolonemannybolone 15,030 Posts
    I'm not looking for anything raer to collect.

    I also find it crazy that dude only started this thread to know what he could buy to resell.

    Which reminds me: That Troubleneck 12" is no big deal. $10-15.
Sign In or Register to comment.