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basic question about taxes

mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
edited October 2008 in Strut Central
Something close to 30-40% of Americans don't pay federal income tax b/c their total income falls too low to be taxable. b,121b,121That being true...I'm trying to rationalize the argument that illegal immigration is a tax burden. The typical argument goes: "illegals don't pay taxes and but cost us in terms of social programs (especially) education, that use tax payer money." BUT...considering that most illegal immigrants would likely earn wages too low to be taxable to begin with...doesn't that partially undermine the argument being put forward? b,121b,121Or to put it another way, doesn't the poorer segment of the American population theoretically avoid paying income tax but benefit from social programs funded through tax payments? I feel like I'm missing something obvious here but can't quite figure out what that is.b,121b,121Note: technically, most illegals (except those using fake SS#s) don't pay payroll, SSI and Medicare taxes either though I'm not sure, out of that, what they would have benefitted from. You can pay into SS with a fake number but you can't claim money from it, for example.

  Comments

  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
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    h,121
    b,121Something close to 30-40% of Americans don't pay federal income tax b/c their total income falls too low to be taxable.
    b,121
    b,121That being true...I'm trying to rationalize the argument that illegal immigration is a tax burden. The typical argument goes: "illegals don't pay taxes and but cost us in terms of social programs (especially) education, that use tax payer money." BUT...considering that most illegal immigrants would likely earn wages too low to be taxable to begin with...doesn't that partially undermine the argument being put forward?
    b,121
    b,121Or to put it another way, doesn't the poorer segment of the American population theoretically avoid paying income tax but benefit from social programs funded through tax payments? I feel like I'm missing something obvious here but can't quite figure out what that is.
    b,121
    b,121Note: technically, most illegals (except those using fake SS#s) don't pay payroll, SSI and Medicare taxes either though I'm not sure, out of that, what they would have benefitted from. You can pay into SS with a fake number but you can't claim money from it, for example.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121This is not your normal concise writing. b,121b,121Your 30-40% number is suspect.b,121b,12130-40% don't make enough to itemize? b,121b,12130-40% pay more in payroll taxes than their tax liability?b,121b,121^ I don't know but you need to nail this down. b,121b,121If you receive a paycheck you pay federal taxes, no matter how low your income. b,121b,121People getting paid under the table or as contractors are liable for taxes on their income. But of course most don't bother to file. This goes for both undocumented immigrants and citizens. b,121b,121We all receive lots of tax benefits. The roads we drive to work and that bring products to the stores where we shop. Our military around the world keeping cheap oil and trade safe. Our ports and airports and hospitals and schools and parks and professional sports teams and television stations and sewers and everything are all subsidized with tax money. b,121b,121Here is a question. At what income level do people start paying more in taxes than they use?
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    40% figure: a href="http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/228/" target="_blank"1http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/228/
  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
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    h,121
    b,12140% figure:
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121"There's a small caveat to the 40 percent number ??? it includes nonfilers, typically taxpayers who don't have to file returns because their incomes are too low. It's logical to assume that most nonfilers don't pay income taxes, but it's possible that some did if they had income taxes withheld by an employer. This is probably a very small number, because people with low incomes have an economic incentive to file a return and get a refund."b,121b,121You need a second source. I think the assumption that nonfilers don't have taxes with held is false. b,121b,121I would be interested in seeing estimates of the number of people and $$$ in the underground economy.
  • DjArcadianDjArcadian 3,630 Posts
    The problem is not immigrants but the employers who fail to withhold taxes. The employer is required to withhold taxes and pay them to the IRS, not the employee. Even in cases where they're paid as a 1099 employee business are required to withhold 20% without a W9 form. Granted, there's a million ways around this but the average immigrant isn't going to understand the complexities of the tax system. I've known several illegal immigrants and all of them paid taxes. Did they all file their year end returns? No, but that's just paperwork and in the end they're probably not getting money back that they deserve. b,121b,121That being said I'm by no means saying illegal immigrants aren't in some way cheating the system but they're hardly the leech sucking the system dry.
  • ZEN2ZEN2 1,540 Posts
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    h,121
    b,121
    b,121If you receive a paycheck you pay federal taxes, no matter how low your income.
    b,121
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121Many people are tax-exempt below a certain income level. These folks can either have the gov't take out nothing from your paycheck or get it all back when you file your return. In many cases these people will get much more back than was withheld from their checks???potentially thousands of dollars in earned income credit and child tax credits.
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
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    h,121
    b,121
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    h,121
    b,121
    b,121If you receive a paycheck you pay federal taxes, no matter how low your income.
    b,121
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1
    b,121
    b,121Many people are tax-exempt below a certain income level. These folks can either have the gov't take out nothing from your paycheck or get it all back when you file your return. I
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121Yeah, this is what I'm saying. Don't these people technically use up social services without contributing into the taxpayer funds that pay for them?
  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States#Year_2008_income_brackets_and_tax_rates" target="_blank"1http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States#Year_2008_income_brackets_and_tax_ratesb,121b,121If your income is between b,121$0 - $8,025.00 b,121you are in the 10% tax rate. b,121b,121You make a dollar you owe .10c
  • GaryGary 3,982 Posts
    I got all my taxes back for a looooong time when I wasn't making shit.
  • JimBeamJimBeam Seattle. 2,012 Posts
    most consumer items are subject to sales tax (here in SD .025% of the purchase price goes towards transnet to pay for transportation and transit projects.)b,121b,121there are federal taxes on liquor and tobacco products which help pay for health programs.b,121b,121every time someone buys a tire for their car (in CA), they pay a dollar toward tire recycling programs.b,121b,121a portion of ones rent goes toward paying the property tax of the residence that person resides in, (and in turn, funds schools in that district in CA.)b,121b,121even if illegal immigrants are not paying federal income tax on their pay stubs, they are paying into the state and federal tax base that provides services for everyone, including themselves.b,121b,121"illegals are a tax burden" is an argument that does not hold water-- if that were the case, then neither do people who earn very low incomes and pay income taxes like everyone else-- many of whom inevitably use a larger dollar-value amount of social services than the amount that they contribute to the tax base.
  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
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    h,121
    b,121
    b,121
    b,121"illegals are a tax burden" is an argument that does not hold water-- if that were the case, then neither do people who earn very low incomes and pay income taxes like everyone else-- many of whom inevitably use a larger dollar-value amount of social services than the amount that they contribute to the tax base.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121The question; is how much in services does the typical person use?b,121b,121I would love to see a serious study of this question.b,121b,121I would want the study to include those benifits that the wealthy receive, not just medicade, food stamps.
  • JimBeamJimBeam Seattle. 2,012 Posts
    there have been estimates (a really old, not very well researched census study comes to mind,) but I don't think there really is a way to tell. (when potholes are filled with construction paid for by tax money, how much of that pothole filler do you "use" when you drive over it?) one thing that can be generalized: there is a negative correlation between income and aggregate value of services used by income category (most of the social programs with huge budgets are aimed at people on the lower end of the income scale... how much of that budget is directed to the recipient and how much is wasted on bureaucratic nonsense is another matter entirely.) b,121b,121that is not to say that the wealthy do not benefit from tax-funded programs-- they do just like everyone else.b,121this sort of stuff becomes an issue when people (nixon, et al, holleur!) add value judgments to the recipients of social welfare benefits ("cadillac driving welfare queens" etc) thus stereotyping the less fortunate as advantageous and leeching (sounds like the conservative description of illegal immigrants) as opposed to less fortunate.b,121b,121it's those damn chemtrail photographing, non-tax paying off-the-grid-living types that really epitomize the tragedy of the commons here...
  • 4YearGraduate4YearGraduate 2,945 Posts
    Bust This -b,121b,121All the illegal immigrants in my family have been paying tax (both at the end of the year and via payroll) under a stolen social security number. This stolen number is the same one they use to get cell phones and credit cards. I am not saying i condone it, but this is VERY common amongst illegal aliens who hope to become citizens one day. b,121b,121The rumor amongst that community is that should you go to court or be caught, you can make a strong argument because you have actually being paying taxes. b,121b,121People won't own up to this for studies or surveys but i know of alot of latinos who are doing it. Even if i think it's ridiculous. b,121b,12140% not paying any tax? Hells no.
  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
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    h,121
    b,121Bust This -
    b,121
    b,121All the illegal immigrants in my family have been paying tax (both at the end of the year and via payroll) under a stolen social security number. This stolen number is the same one they use to get cell phones and credit cards. I am not saying i condone it, but this is VERY common amongst illegal aliens who hope to become citizens one day.
    b,121
    b,121The rumor amongst that community is that should you go to court or be caught, you can make a strong argument because you have actually being paying taxes.
    b,121
    b,121People won't own up to this for studies or surveys but i know of alot of latinos who are doing it. Even if i think it's ridiculous.
    b,121
    b,12140% not paying any tax? Hells no.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121All the big immigration raids in the last few years have caught people who were paying taxes and using false ss#s.
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
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    h,121
    b,121
    b,121
    b,121"illegals are a tax burden" is an argument that does not hold water-- if that were the case, then neither do people who earn very low incomes and pay income taxes like everyone else-- many of whom inevitably use a larger dollar-value amount of social services than the amount that they contribute to the tax base.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121Yeah, this is what I was trying to get at. Thanks!
  • GaryGary 3,982 Posts
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    h,121
    b,121
    b,121
    b,121it's those damn chemtrail photographing, non-tax paying off-the-grid-living types that really epitomize the tragedy of the commons here...
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121b,121HAHAHA!
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