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We Are Marching To Socialism

The_NonThe_Non 5,691 Posts
edited October 2008 in Strut Central
Banks partly owned by US? What? Discuss. Shit is crazy. This is truly a new era in our (US) country.
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  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
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    b,121Banks partly owned by US? What? Discuss. Shit is crazy. This is truly a new era in our (US) country.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121Invest in personal weaponry.
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    The alternative is we buy out all these bunk ass mortgage-backed securities which would likely just be pissing tax payer money away. b,121b,121Hell yeah I support partial ownership. IT'S MY MONEY propping up these dickwad banks.b,121b,121And dude: public schools? Public libraries? Medicare? Are these not socialist institutions we readily accept? b,121b,121
  • The_NonThe_Non 5,691 Posts
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    b,121The alternative is we buy out all these bunk ass mortgage-backed securities which would likely just be pissing tax payer money away.
    b,121
    b,121Hell yeah I support partial ownership. IT'S MY MONEY propping up these dickwad banks.
    b,121
    b,121And dude: public schools? Public libraries? Medicare? Are these not socialist institutions we readily accept?
    b,121
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    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121Chinese protectionism of their markets and pooling of their resources seems like a model countries will be marching towards. This could also lead to a scale back in globalization, tariff increases, and harsh crackdowns on illegal immigration.
  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
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    b,121The alternative is we buy out all these bunk ass mortgage-backed securities which would likely just be pissing tax payer money away.
    b,121
    b,121Hell yeah I support partial ownership. IT'S MY MONEY propping up these dickwad banks.
    b,121
    b,121And dude: public schools? Public libraries? Medicare? Are these not socialist institutions we readily accept?
    b,121
    b,121
    b,121
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    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121I'm down with Manny. I think as soon as we have a majority stake we should kick the ceos out and replace them with technocrats.
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
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    h,121
    b,121
    b,121Chinese protectionism of their markets and pooling of their resources seems like a model countries will be marching towards. This could also lead to a scale back in globalization, tariff increases, and harsh crackdowns on illegal immigration.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121How you figure? Isn't this supposed to be more like what Sweden did? I don't see how a stock injection plan leads to all the stuff you just laid out.
  • GaryGary 3,982 Posts
    Why do I always think The Non is Canadian? I always forget.
  • The_NonThe_Non 5,691 Posts
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    h,121
    b,121
    b,121Chinese protectionism of their markets and pooling of their resources seems like a model countries will be marching towards. This could also lead to a scale back in globalization, tariff increases, and harsh crackdowns on illegal immigration.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1
    b,121
    b,121How you figure? Isn't this supposed to be more like what Sweden did? I don't see how a stock injection plan leads to all the stuff you just laid out.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121All those would be a reaction to current market trends towards protectionism of the "home market." It's not an if-then syllogism relationship, those actions would be "reactionary." b,121Sweden is "democratic socialism." America is not a democracy, it is a republic, and more worrisome, an increasingly "executive based" "decider" republic (see The Limits On Power by Andrew Bacevich). The only "republic" that matters and is (allegedly) socialist is China. The Chinese have a market economy that is often protected, funded, assisted, and overseen with Chinese government money and influence. It is my opinion we (US) are moving toward that. World economies might increasingly shun globalization in response to market shock, not as a direct consequence of credit and housing market irresponsibility, but as a reaction. I hope that clarifies my position because I don't wanna write a gargantuan page on the subject.
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
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    h,121
    b,121
    b,121Chinese protectionism of their markets and pooling of their resources seems like a model countries will be marching towards. This could also lead to a scale back in globalization, tariff increases, and harsh crackdowns on illegal immigration.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121How you figure? Isn't this supposed to be more like what Sweden did? I don't see how a stock injection plan leads to all the stuff you just laid out. b,121b,121I mean, here are the options we have:b,121b,121We pay $700,000,000,000 for securities no one wants and no one knows what the worth is - if they even have a worth. If they end up just being paper junk, guess what? We just gave these companies $700B for crap. b,121b,121Alternatively, we buy $700B in stock from these companies. That gives us a seat at the table - if they profit, WE profit. Again, IT'S OUR f*cking MONEY. If the companies still fold, our risk isn't inherently greater than buying that $700B worth of potentially worthless paper. Plus, we have a say in how these companies do business. b,121b,121b,121Tell me how the first option is more desirable?
  • The_NonThe_Non 5,691 Posts
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    b,121Chinese protectionism of their markets and pooling of their resources seems like a model countries will be marching towards. This could also lead to a scale back in globalization, tariff increases, and harsh crackdowns on illegal immigration.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1
    b,121
    b,121How you figure? Isn't this supposed to be more like what Sweden did? I don't see how a stock injection plan leads to all the stuff you just laid out.
    b,121
    b,121I mean, here are the options we have:
    b,121
    b,121We pay $700,000,000,000 for securities no one wants and no one knows what the worth is - if they even have a worth. If they end up just being paper junk, guess what? We just gave these companies $700B for crap.
    b,121
    b,121Alternatively, we buy $700B in stock from these companies. That gives us a seat at the table - if they profit, WE profit. Again, IT'S OUR f*cking MONEY. If the companies still fold, our risk isn't inherently greater than buying that $700B worth of potentially worthless paper. Plus, we have a say in how these companies do business.
    b,121
    b,121
    b,121Tell me how the first option is more desirable?
    b,121
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    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121I wasn't arguing desirability. I was arguing that it's the dawn of a new economic era never seen before (barring some aspects of the Great Depression) and even that has its few parallels and many differences.
  • The_NonThe_Non 5,691 Posts
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    b,121Why do I always think The Non is Canadian? I always forget.
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  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
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    b,121 it's the dawn of a new economic era
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    font class="post"1b,121b,121TRUE.
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    b,121 it's the dawn of a new economic era
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    b,121TRUE.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121Unrestrained capitalism is clearly not the answer. Government intervention is not the same as socialism. It's necessary to have a system of checks and balances to avoid a crisis like this.
  • DJ_NevilleCDJ_NevilleC 1,922 Posts
    If we do drift towards economic socialism it'll be ironic because it was Republican non-regulation which drove us there.
  • The_NonThe_Non 5,691 Posts
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    b,121 it's the dawn of a new economic era
    b,121
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    h,121
    font class="post"1
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    b,121TRUE.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1
    b,121
    b,121Unrestrained capitalism is clearly not the answer. Government intervention is not the same as socialism. It's necessary to have a system of checks and balances to avoid a crisis like this.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121According to you. According to Adam Smith and white guys in wigs who founded this country, not so much.
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
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    h,121
    b,121 it's the dawn of a new economic era
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1
    b,121
    b,121TRUE.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1
    b,121
    b,121Unrestrained capitalism is clearly not the answer. Government intervention is not the same as socialism. It's necessary to have a system of checks and balances to avoid a crisis like this.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1
    b,121
    b,121According to you. According to Adam Smith and white guys in wigs who founded this country, not so much.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121And how we doing under that system exactly?
  • The_NonThe_Non 5,691 Posts
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    b,121 it's the dawn of a new economic era
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1
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    b,121TRUE.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1
    b,121
    b,121Unrestrained capitalism is clearly not the answer. Government intervention is not the same as socialism. It's necessary to have a system of checks and balances to avoid a crisis like this.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1
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    b,121According to you. According to Adam Smith and white guys in wigs who founded this country, not so much.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1
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    b,121And how we doing under that system exactly?
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121Here's the thing. While I see your point, I would prefer a system structured by the likes of a man like Benjamin Franklin over 99% of the jerkoffs in Congress. b,121This is coming from a Socialist that thinks Marx was wrong, so take it how you wanna.
  • LokoOneLokoOne 1,823 Posts
    b,121This is where the future is headed..... its the take over!b,121b,121b,121b,121 a href="http://object width="425" height="344"1param name="movie" value=""1/param1param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"1/param1embed src="" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height=3441/embed1
  • kitchenknightkitchenknight 4,922 Posts
    Isn't this just a radical (and predictable/predicted) swing back to the left after nearly 30 years of center-RIGHT economic policy? b,121b,121The pendulum is swinging left, and after another cycle, will move back again. This is how these things work, no? And, frankly, if government can't step-in in times of crisis, be it times of war, natural disaster, or man-made economic disaster, then what good is government?b,121b,121I would hope they would be looking for any viable solution, regardless of what ideology it falls under.
  • DB_CooperDB_Cooper Manhatin' 7,823 Posts
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    b,121 it's the dawn of a new economic era
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1
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    b,121TRUE.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1
    b,121
    b,121Unrestrained capitalism is clearly not the answer. Government intervention is not the same as socialism. It's necessary to have a system of checks and balances to avoid a crisis like this.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1
    b,121
    b,121According to you. According to Adam Smith and white guys in wigs who founded this country, not so much.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121Well, to be fair, the concept of the invisible hand of the market has been relegated to the same corner of history as the Copernican geocentric universe. It's not bad when you look at it from a macro scale, but as soon as you begin to magnify the system, you find reality deviates from the supposed pattern to the extent that it is simply not useful as an accurate predictor.
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    I can't remember who said this but invisible hand is really balled up like a fist.
  • gruntgravelgruntgravel 559 Posts
    Atlas shrugs on election day.
  • luckluck 4,077 Posts
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    b,121Isn't this just a radical (and predictable/predicted) swing back to the left after nearly 30 years of center-RIGHT economic policy?
    b,121
    b,121The pendulum is swinging left, and after another cycle, will move back again. This is how these things work, no? And, frankly, if government can't step-in in times of crisis, be it times of war, natural disaster, or man-made economic disaster, then what good is government?
    b,121
    b,121I would hope they would be looking for any viable solution, regardless of what ideology it falls under.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121Nope. This is not current political thought prevailing here; this is the complete and singular re-structuring of our Nation's economic system.
  • Mad Drama TeacherMad Drama Teacher 1,985 Posts
    Yep. Paradigm shift.
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    b,121 it's the dawn of a new economic era
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    font class="post"1
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    b,121TRUE.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1
    b,121
    b,121Unrestrained capitalism is clearly not the answer. Government intervention is not the same as socialism. It's necessary to have a system of checks and balances to avoid a crisis like this.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1
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    b,121According to you. According to Adam Smith and white guys in wigs who founded this country, not so much.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121F*ck Adam Smith. I'm talking about John Maynard Keynes. b,121b,121Get your head on straight over here: a href="http://www.ie.ufrj.br/publicacoes/serie_seminarios_de_pesquisa/texto_02_12.pdf" target="_blank"1http://www.ie.ufrj.br/publicacoes/serie_seminarios_de_pesquisa/texto_02_12.pdfb,121
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    b,121I can't remember who said this but invisible hand is really balled up like a fist.
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    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121a href="http://www.soulstrut.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=crates&Number=1190707&Searchpage=3&Main=1190439&Words=Driftwood&topic=&Search=true#Post1190707" target="_blank"1http://www.soulstrut.com/ubbthreads/show...rue#Post1190707b,121b,121b,121b,121...I first read this quote from a David McNally book (http://www.amazon.com/Another-World-Possible-Globalization-Anti-Capitalism/dp/1894037170)
  • LokoOneLokoOne 1,823 Posts
    There will be no cganges as long as 'the chicago boys' network is still running thangs. Or to paraphrase my dad's favourite quote...b,121b,121"The problems of the world will finally begin to be solved on the day the last banker is hanging from the entrails of the last politician..."b,121b,121Bascially these guys will always find away to turn a buck under ANY form of capitalism. Keynes was cool, but dont forget his whole theory was based, and accepted, around the notion that the working classes would move towards socialism, so the welfare state was a kinda of way of bribing ppl to accept regulated capitalism. Friedman and his Chicago boys led a long ass campaign to discredit Keynes' economic theories, displace them and destroy anyone who kept them alive (the whole IMF/WB is designed on that premise) so weven if a Keynes system is allowed to retuirn it will only be for as long as the public buys back all the bullshit, once the public coffers (and property) begins to accumulate in value the free marketers will be out for Keynesian blood again...b,121b,121"Its not a case of a free market, its really a case of free foxes amongst free chickens" Ernesto Guevara (UN Speech 1967)
  • KrautbreaksKrautbreaks 276 Posts
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    b,121
    b,121Bascially these guys will always find away to turn a buck under ANY form of capitalism. Keynes was cool, but dont forget his whole theory was based, and accepted, around the notion that the working classes would move towards socialism, so the welfare state was a kinda of way of bribing ppl to accept regulated capitalism. Friedman and his Chicago boys led a long ass campaign to discredit Keynes' economic theories, displace them and destroy anyone who kept them alive (the whole IMF/WB is designed on that premise) so weven if a Keynes system is allowed to retuirn it will only be for as long as the public buys back all the bullshit, once the public coffers (and property) begins to accumulate in value the free marketers will be out for Keynesian blood again...
    b,121
    b,121"Its not a case of a free market, its really a case of free foxes amongst free chickens" Ernesto Guevara (UN Speech 1967)
    b,121
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    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121right.b,121b,121And to now follow those words that come from someone else...b,121b,121WHAT EXACTLY will be different after that "new dawn" ??????????
  • LuckLoopLuckLoop 103 Posts
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    b,121Sweden is "democratic socialism." America is not a democracy, it is a republic,
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    font class="post"1b,121b,121republic and democracy doesn't expel eachother, republic is the contrary of a monarchyb,121democracy is the opposite of a dictatorshipb,121Nazi Germany was basically a republic and a dictatorshipb,121Sweden is a democratic monarchyb,121the USA are a democratic republicb,121b,121both have elections. in the one, head of state is a monarch - in Sweden a king, in the other an elected presidentb,121b,121just to clear that up
  • skelskel You can't cheat karma 5,033 Posts
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    b,121Sweden is "democratic socialism." America is not a democracy, it is a republic,
    b,121
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    font class="post"1
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    b,121republic and democracy doesn't expel eachother, republic is the contrary of a monarchy
    b,121democracy is the opposite of a dictatorship
    b,121Nazi Germany was basically a republic and a dictatorship
    b,121Sweden is a democratic monarchy
    b,121the USA are a democratic republic
    b,121
    b,121both have elections. in the one, head of state is a monarch - in Sweden a king, in the other an elected president
    b,121
    b,121just to clear that up
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    font class="post"1b,121b,121We need a monarchic dictatorship to complete the set....
  • davesrecordsdavesrecords 1,802 Posts
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    b,121Sweden is "democratic socialism." America is not a democracy, it is a republic,
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1
    b,121
    b,121republic and democracy doesn't expel eachother, republic is the contrary of a monarchy
    b,121democracy is the opposite of a dictatorship
    b,121Nazi Germany was basically a republic and a dictatorship
    b,121Sweden is a democratic monarchy
    b,121the USA are a democratic republic
    b,121
    b,121both have elections. in the one, head of state is a monarch - in Sweden a king, in the other an elected president
    b,121
    b,121just to clear that up
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1
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    b,121We need a moronic dictatorship to complete the set....
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121don't we already have that ? img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" 21
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