Can vs. 24 Carat Black

analog_tapeanalog_tape 604 Posts
edited March 2009 in Strut Central
Can - Ege Bamyasi came out in 1972, 24 Carat Black - Ghetto: Misfortune's Wealth came out in 1973. Was 24 Carat Black into Can or is it just weird that both of their songs sound alike?
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  • The question just wasn't fleshed out enough. And the concepts for both albums are completely different. I would have liked a reference to specific song titles. 24 Carat Black was basically a one-off project, not a group per se. Can's best album, in my opinion, was "Tago Mago". Unless you're referencing "Vitamin C" and have a song from "Ghetto: Misfortune's Wealth" to compare/contrast it to, I'm not really seeing how you're making such a connection. "Ghetto" is one of the best albums ever made, period. A true concept album if there ever was one. Connect all the dots, please...Thank you

  • bull_oxbull_ox 5,056 Posts
    24 Carat Black was basically a one-off project, not a group per se.

    I thought it was actually more than a group, that they were together before they were taken in by the producer and that he then worked with them for a long time to create the album.

  • The question just wasn't fleshed out enough. And the concepts for both albums are completely different. I would have liked a reference to specific song titles. 24 Carat Black was basically a one-off project, not a group per se. Can's best album, in my opinion, was "Tago Mago". Unless you're referencing "Vitamin C" and have a song from "Ghetto: Misfortune's Wealth" to compare/contrast it to, I'm not really seeing how you're making such a connection. "Ghetto" is one of the best albums ever made, period. A true concept album if there ever was one. Connect all the dots, please...Thank you

    Can - Vitamin C and 24 Carat Black - "24 Carat Black Theme" are the same drums and bass line on the two albums, that's what i was referencing.

  • It was a one-off "supergroup" - there were some studio musicians from Memphis as well as Motown. I wrote something more detailed about the project at Funk45.com, but of course that site appears to be down forever (unfortunately).

    Okay, I gotcha in re: specific titles. I've heard variations of the same drum patterns in jazz compositions. I know a lot of people have sampled "Vitamin C" specifically for the drums, but I need to go back and listen to both to see where you're going with the comparison. Very interesting topic...

  • Can - Ege Bamyasi came out in 1972, 24 Carat Black - Ghetto: Misfortune's Wealth came out in 1973. Was 24 Carat Black into Can or is it just weird that both of their songs sound alike?

    This has come up often over the years. Last time I heard it debated, I thought the consensus was that 24CB bit Can.

  • How is it that 24 CB bit Can, technically speaking? A consensus can be - and in fact, often is - wrong. What empirical proof do you have? Do you have an interview with a 24 CB producer or a statement from someone who was a member of Can? We all know there are some people who can definitely claim ownership of certain drum patterns. If you're saying the entire 24 CB group conspired to bite Can, that is (basically) impossible. No one is being specific enough on the topic to convince me yet...I'm sorry...

  • bull_oxbull_ox 5,056 Posts
    Warren befriended an up-and-coming Cincinnati soul outfit called the Ditalians. After he convinced them to change their name to 24-Carat Black, he took them under his wing -- both composing and producing their lone album, 1973's Ghetto: Misfortune's Wealth, a conceptual work that focused on life in the inner city.

    I of course can't confirm this information, but I've seen the story stated similarly enough times in enough different places that I believe it to be true.

    What I didn't know was that apparently they later became Shotgun

  • The text you're quoting is missing a lot of details. Some members of the 24 CB group did spin off into Shotgun - not all. Some of the members went back to Memphis. The text also makes it seem like the Ditalians were the only members of CB, which is false. Were they considered the main members? I think so. Were they the only ones or the only ones that mattered? No.

  • How is it that 24 CB bit Can, technically speaking? A consensus can be - and in fact, often is - wrong. What empirical proof do you have? Do you have an interview with a 24 CB producer or a statement from someone who was a member of Can? We all know there are some people who can definitely claim ownership of certain drum patterns. If you're saying the entire 24 CB group conspired to bite Can, that is (basically) impossible. No one is being specific enough on the topic to convince me yet...I'm sorry...

    Slow down, son!

    Dude asked "has anyone ever talked about this?" and my response was, "hell yeah, people have been talking about this for years." And from what I've seen, people are inclined to think it's either a complete coincidence OR that Can got bit.

    No smoking gun memo to confirm this. I'd be curious to hear a few musicologists weigh in.

  • Okay, why do I have to slow down? Can you slow your roll?...I sense a bit of aggression and maybe some hostility in your response. I have no problems with Analog Tape...In fact, I did mention that this is an interesting topic. It's a smart question that does warrant further investigation and debate. You're overreacting, in my opinion. No need for that whatsoever.

    Moving forward with a few sidepoints about 24 CB personnel that have been made. Not everyone who was involved with the Ditalians went over to the 24 Carat Black project and not everyone who was involved with the 24 Carat Black project went to the Shotgun project. For example, Bruce Torbert and Forest Hutchinson of the Ditalians did not play a part in 24 CB, and there were at least 5 ladies involved in the music and vocals of the group that obviously did not go to Shotgun. There were over 20 members of 24 CB - the rhythm section, a lot of ancillary members and session/studio players, some of which did other work for Stax....

    The five people from 24 CB who went to Shotgun were:

    Ernest Latimore (guitar)
    Gregory Ingram (arranger/sax)
    Larry Austin (bass)
    Tyrone Steele (percussion/vocal)
    William Talbert (arranger/organ)

    Dale Warren was the composer. Now, if a person says 24 CB bit Can, who exactly is the biter? Warren? Ingram and Talbert? The rhythm section? And if so, is the person proving the argument?

    I think it's fair to say that Pharoahe Monch bit Akira Ifukube's "Godzilla vs Mothra" score or that LL Cool J and "White Lines Don't Do It" bit Liquid Liquid's "Cavern". Or that people bit ESG or any number of groups. In those cases, it is quite obvious what's going on. But when someone says 24 CB bit Can's "Vitamin C", I don't have a problem with the statement/question, I'm merely asking for concrete proof the person has of that. Or just a more fleshed out opinion, that's all...

    No need to get offended by my questions, which I think are valid...

    Wowzers! (P.S. don't refer to me as "son". You don't know me like that)


  • Wowzers! (P.S. don't refer to me as "son". You don't know me like that)

    Now who's getting defensive?

  • ZEN2ZEN2 1,540 Posts

    Wowzers! (P.S. don't refer to me as "son". You don't know me like that)



  • hemolhemol 2,578 Posts
    There was a thread on this about 6 months ago (maybe 7).

  • SoulOnIceSoulOnIce 13,027 Posts
    LL Cool J and "White Lines Don't Do It" bit Liquid Liquid's "Cavern".



  • ariel_calmerariel_calmer 3,762 Posts
    Okay, why do I have to slow down? Can you slow your roll?...I sense a bit of aggression and maybe some hostility in your response. I have no problems with Analog Tape...In fact, I did mention that this is an interesting topic. It's a smart question that does warrant further investigation and debate. You're overreacting, in my opinion. No need for that whatsoever.

    Moving forward with a few sidepoints about 24 CB personnel that have been made. Not everyone who was involved with the Ditalians went over to the 24 Carat Black project and not everyone who was involved with the 24 Carat Black project went to the Shotgun project. For example, Bruce Torbert and Forest Hutchinson of the Ditalians did not play a part in 24 CB, and there were at least 5 ladies involved in the music and vocals of the group that obviously did not go to Shotgun. There were over 20 members of 24 CB - the rhythm section, a lot of ancillary members and session/studio players, some of which did other work for Stax....

    The five people from 24 CB who went to Shotgun were:

    Ernest Latimore (guitar)
    Gregory Ingram (arranger/sax)
    Larry Austin (bass)
    Tyrone Steele (percussion/vocal)
    William Talbert (arranger/organ)

    Dale Warren was the composer. Now, if a person says 24 CB bit Can, who exactly is the biter? Warren? Ingram and Talbert? The rhythm section? And if so, is the person proving the argument?

    I think it's fair to say that Pharoahe Monch bit Akira Ifukube's "Godzilla vs Mothra" score or that LL Cool J and "White Lines Don't Do It" bit Liquid Liquid's "Cavern". Or that people bit ESG or any number of groups. In those cases, it is quite obvious what's going on. But when someone says 24 CB bit Can's "Vitamin C", I don't have a problem with the statement/question, I'm merely asking for concrete proof the person has of that. Or just a more fleshed out opinion, that's all...

    No need to get offended by my questions, which I think are valid...

    Wowzers! (P.S. don't refer to me as "son". You don't know me like that)

    Switch to decaf?

  • Don't need to...anyways, is it really that serious for people to get this sidetracked when the original topic of discussion was Can and 24 Carat Black? I happen to love both albums, but now we're no longer having a discussion about any of the valid points and questions that have been raised...Can you stick to the original topic, please? And if you think my argument is flawed or my information is inaccurate, I don't mind someone countering my opinions...this is not a personal issue...it's just a musical issue, right?

  • The original topic is why the two artists have two songs that sound really alike. Logic would dictate that either it's 1) a pure coincidence or 2) one artist "borrowed" from the other.

    The simplest explanation - absent "empirical proof" (i.e. a smoking gun confirmation) - is probably #2. The chances that two tracks so similar would randomly appear within a year of one another isn't impossible but I think, reasonably speaking, it's implausible.

    From a musicological point of view, the side by side comparison of the two songs IS the empirical proof. This all said, I'm open to the possibility that it was pure coincidence but I don't think that's the rational/logical assumption to make.

  • upskibooupskiboo 2,396 Posts
    pure coincidence

  • 24 Carat Black was basically a one-off project, not a group per se.


    keeps reminding me the EMO Vs GOTH Southpark Episode... ^^

  • TNGTNG 234 Posts
    24 Carat Black was basically a one-off project, not a group per se.

    The tapes I have in the office say you're wrong. The skeleton for a second album exists, and you'll hear it soon enough.

    Also, they played live for several years in the midwest and south.

  • I'd be curious to hear a few musicologists weigh in.

    send me a copy of the 24CB album, i will be happy to give you my opinion right away.

  • ZEN2ZEN2 1,540 Posts
    24 Carat Black was basically a one-off project, not a group per se.

    The tapes I have in the office say you're wrong. The skeleton for a second album exists, and you'll hear it soon enough.

    Also, they played live for several years in the midwest and south.

    Post audio or it doesn't exist.


  • LoopDreamsLoopDreams 1,195 Posts
    24 Carat Black was basically a one-off project, not a group per se.

    The tapes I have in the office say you're wrong. The skeleton for a second album exists, and you'll hear it soon enough.

    Also, they played live for several years in the midwest and south.

    SHIT YA!

  • skelskel You can't cheat karma 5,028 Posts
    We need a celebrity death match up in this bitch.

    Analog Tape and LeftyBanks with their 'unfleshed-out' opinions versus the spambot sonnings and prog rock quizzes of Surrealist

  • BeatnicholasBeatnicholas 1,005 Posts
    interesting topic!

    just how popular were Can at the time? I know we would consider them an official part of the canon nowadays but were they well known enough to reach the ears of 24 carat black? Surely they were a little known german band at the time..

    Both rhythms rely on a fairly simple bass line / drum vamp which I'm sure you can find other examples of that "match" but I'm not sure it's as a result of direct influence...

  • tripledoubletripledouble 7,636 Posts
    The skeleton for a second album exists, and you'll hear it soon enough.



    best news ive heard in a while. similar sound?

  • CosmoCosmo 9,767 Posts
    Out of the all the pedantic shit that's gone on in this thread, this...

    The skeleton for a second album exists, and you'll hear it soon enough.

    is a TREMENDOUS look. Thank you, TNG - can't wait.

  • interesting topic!

    just how popular were Can at the time? I know we would consider them an official part of the canon nowadays but were they well known enough to reach the ears of 24 carat black? Surely they were a little known german band at the time..

    Both rhythms rely on a fairly simple bass line / drum vamp which I'm sure you can find other examples of that "match" but I'm not sure it's as a result of direct influence...

    By the time "Vitamin C" came out, Can was already enjoying *relatively* high visibility but it's hard to know how far and wide their music was being heard. They were not uber-obscure however - "Vitamin C" was on their third or fourth album, "Ege Bamyasi", and that LP might even have charted on the pop charts in the U.S.

  • TNGTNG 234 Posts
    The skeleton for a second album exists, and you'll hear it soon enough.

    :melt

    best news ive heard in a while. similar sound?

    Very similar, if not a bit more experimental. Extremely dark except for a Stephen Stills cover, which is just plain funky. There were close to ten tapes worth of material, sadly 7 of them were damaged beyond repair.

    I've condensed the icons, excuse the inaccurate quote.
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