The problem again is: ok, everyone agrees: we need more women. But what albums?
I would have been down to include MC Lyte's 2nd album but she's already in the book, alongside Latifah.
Yo Yo?
Shante?
Boss?
Heather B?
Seriously - what albums by any of these artists even vaguely passes for a "classic" album? Hell, look at how many of these women charted in Ego Trip's extensive lists (answer: not many at all).
O -
No doubt - I'm pretty sure you would've caught more flak if you actually had included more female albums and designated 'em w/ classic status since they're in so short supply to begin w/: it would've appeared as if you and your collaborators were seriously reachin'...
For instance, although tempting to have her in the book owin' to her Marley Marl-produced sides, Shante's legacy is built on a string of 12" singles...
The problem again is: ok, everyone agrees: we need more women. But what albums?
I would have been down to include MC Lyte's 2nd album but she's already in the book, alongside Latifah.
Yo Yo? Shante? Boss? Heather B?
Seriously - what albums by any of these artists even vaguely passes for a "classic" album? Hell, look at how many of these women charted in Ego Trip's extensive lists (answer: not many at all).
I think Missy would have definitely made the 2nd edition. Beyond that, I really don't know, given the criteria we laid out (i.e. albums over artists).
Well, don't tell anybody, but I think this album is really good, although I view it as more of a Biggie album:
I will delete this post in the next two minutes.
Nah..............Its far from a trash Lp. BUt it shouldnt be on anybodys list.
The problem again is: ok, everyone agrees: we need more women. But what albums?
I would have been down to include MC Lyte's 2nd album but she's already in the book, alongside Latifah.
Yo Yo? Shante? Boss? Heather B?
Seriously - what albums by any of these artists even vaguely passes for a "classic" album? Hell, look at how many of these women charted in Ego Trip's extensive lists (answer: not many at all).
I think Missy would have definitely made the 2nd edition. Beyond that, I really don't know, given the criteria we laid out (i.e. albums over artists).
Well, don't tell anybody, but I think this album is really good, although I view it as more of a Biggie album:
I will delete this post in the next two minutes.
Nah..............Its far from a trash Lp. BUt it shouldnt be on anybodys list.
You're right, but I would definitely put it ahead of any YoYo, Heather B or Boss albums. Probably the only record released by a female MC in the past 15 years that I own.
The problem again is: ok, everyone agrees: we need more women. But what albums?
I would have been down to include MC Lyte's 2nd album but she's already in the book, alongside Latifah.
Yo Yo? Shante? Boss? Heather B?
Seriously - what albums by any of these artists even vaguely passes for a "classic" album? Hell, look at how many of these women charted in Ego Trip's extensive lists (answer: not many at all).
I think Missy would have definitely made the 2nd edition. Beyond that, I really don't know, given the criteria we laid out (i.e. albums over artists).
Well, don't tell anybody, but I think this album is really good, although I view it as more of a Biggie album:
I will delete this post in the next two minutes.
Nah..............Its far from a trash Lp. BUt it shouldnt be on anybodys list.
You're right, but I would definitely put it ahead of any YoYo, Heather B or Boss albums. Probably the only record released by a female MC in the past 15 years that I own aside from my Northern State and Princess Superstar albums [/b].
The problem again is: ok, everyone agrees: we need more women. But what albums?
I would have been down to include MC Lyte's 2nd album but she's already in the book, alongside Latifah.
Yo Yo?
Shante?
Boss?
Heather B?
Seriously - what albums by any of these artists even vaguely passes for a "classic" album? Hell, look at how many of these women charted in Ego Trip's extensive lists (answer: not many at all).
I think Missy would have definitely made the 2nd edition. Beyond that, I really don't know, given the criteria we laid out (i.e. albums over artists).
Well, don't tell anybody, but I think this album is really good, although I view it as more of a Biggie album:
I will delete this post in the next two minutes.
Nah..............Its far from a trash Lp. BUt it shouldnt be on anybodys list.
You're right, but I would definitely put it ahead of any YoYo, Heather B or Boss albums. Probably the only record released by a female MC in the past 15 years that I own.
So Missy ain't a woman now? And I thought you had one of the Mia X CDs?
The problem again is: ok, everyone agrees: we need more women. But what albums?
I would have been down to include MC Lyte's 2nd album but she's already in the book, alongside Latifah.
Yo Yo? Shante? Boss? Heather B?
Seriously - what albums by any of these artists even vaguely passes for a "classic" album? Hell, look at how many of these women charted in Ego Trip's extensive lists (answer: not many at all).
I think Missy would have definitely made the 2nd edition. Beyond that, I really don't know, given the criteria we laid out (i.e. albums over artists).
Well, don't tell anybody, but I think this album is really good, although I view it as more of a Biggie album:
I will delete this post in the next two minutes.
Nah..............Its far from a trash Lp. BUt it shouldnt be on anybodys list.
You're right, but I would definitely put it ahead of any YoYo, Heather B or Boss albums. Probably the only record released by a female MC in the past 15 years that I own.
So Missy ain't a woman now? And I thought you had one of the Mia X CDs?
I don't think of Missy as an MC, but yeah, I forgot about the Mia X stuff that I have.
cosine. but i'd be into hearing hear battle. prolly be on some ol' jibber jabber fuschnickens backwards ribb-edy dibb-edy.
sonically she's always been on some next shit. lyrically, ehh.
But she makes great songs and on occassion, a really solid album. Seriously, if the book had been assembled even six months later than it was, I think Missy would have made the cut.
Bahamadia? What Faux said. Lil Kim - she was in discussion but never rose to the top of the pecking order. That goes double for Foxy.
The 2 albums that I really couldnt see being in there was that Bomb-Return of the DJ or whatever it was and That Solseides greatest bumps. Other than that, I can see why everything is in there.
I agree that the southern issue was overlooked, but in all seriousness UGK is a group that had singles her and there but as far as album impact (if that's the criteria) then they never really did it outside of regionally. And to bring up Big Pimpin, it was a Jay-z record, even if UGK did outshine him on it, it stillw as not their single. And again if the criteria is albums this is null and void.
If its going to be anyone from the south album wise its gotta be Ludacris and Lil Jon if it were done today. And yeh the FIx didn't do well, but Geto Boys first album sold a ton for when it was released and made major noise nationally. If anything scarface's first album should be mentioned too IMO because of the wave he was riding with Geto Boys.
Redman? I would put Dare Iz a Darkside before Whut? The Album, unless it youa re looking at sales. to me that first album had more impact as far as introducing the world to his style. Whut did more saleswise because his name was established and they built off the success of the first album.
And the issue I had with PE and Outkast was I think that it was the wrong albums put in... I think Fear of a Black Planet was in there when IMO it should ahve been It Takes A Nation... And Outkast I think it should have been Southernplaya... instead of what was in there.
Whatever though its all subjective really and your list won't be the same as mine. However Mine is always right ....
The 2 albums that I really couldnt see being in there was that Bomb-Return of the DJ or whatever it was and That Solseides greatest bumps. Other than that, I can see why everything is in there.
cosign. I liked them both but niether was really game changing.
cosine. but i'd be into hearing hear battle. prolly be on some ol' jibber jabber fuschnickens backwards ribb-edy dibb-edy.
sonically she's always been on some next shit. lyrically, ehh.
But she makes great songs and on occassion, a really solid album. Seriously, if the book had been assembled even six months later than it was, I think Missy would have made the cut.
Bahamadia? What Faux said. Lil Kim - she was in discussion but never rose to the top of the pecking order. That goes double for Foxy.
Don't get it twisted: I'm a huge Missy fan, but I think of her as more of an all-around hip-hop entertainer than I do as an MC. Like Li'l Jon, Biz Markie, Doug E. Fresh, or Luke.
cosine. but i'd be into hearing hear battle. prolly be on some ol' jibber jabber fuschnickens backwards ribb-edy dibb-edy.
sonically she's always been on some next shit. lyrically, ehh.
But she makes great songs and on occassion, a really solid album. Seriously, if the book had been assembled even six months later than it was, I think Missy would have made the cut.
Bahamadia? What Faux said. Lil Kim - she was in discussion but never rose to the top of the pecking order. That goes double for Foxy.
Don't get it twisted: I'm a huge Missy fan, but I think of her as more of an all-around hip-hop entertainer than I do as an MC. Like Li'l Jon, Biz Markie, Doug E. Fresh, or Luke.
Yeah, I kind think of her along w/ Lauryn Hill as Blurry Line artists.
I agree that the southern issue was overlooked, but in all seriousness UGK is a group that had singles her and there but as far as album impact (if that's the criteria) then they never really did it outside of regionally. And to bring up Big Pimpin, it was a Jay-z record, even if UGK did outshine him on it, it stillw as not their single. And again if the criteria is albums this is null and void.
If its going to be anyone from the south album wise its gotta be Ludacris and Lil Jon if it were done today.
That's the thing, though: U.G.K. has put out better and more influential albums than Ludacris, Li'l Jon or just about any other artist of the past decade plus. Not too many artists can mess with their catalog. Straight classics.
And the issue I had with PE and Outkast was I think that it was the wrong albums put in... I think Fear of a Black Planet was in there when IMO it should ahve been It Takes A Nation... And Outkast I think it should have been Southernplaya... instead of what was in there.
Damn, really? Oliver left out Southernplayalistic...? That's my favorite one. Somehow I was thinking that all four Outkast albums that had then been released at that point were included. Speak on it, Oliver.
If its going to be anyone from the south album wise its gotta be Ludacris and Lil Jon if it were done today.
neither of whom are album oriented artists.
Just sayin, though they ahve sold more albums and their records made mroe headway for the south OUTSIDE of the south than UGK ever did. I love that UGK album but how much headway did it really make? It put them on the map, but it wasn't as if they were able to capitlize on it and make a bigger album. The criteria is a bit muddy and maybe it has to do with the fact that they weren't able to capitilize.
Was Comptons Most Wated in the book? To me I put them in the same category as UGK They had some dope albums and did make biug moves regionally but never were able to make a national move.
If its going to be anyone from the south album wise its gotta be Ludacris and Lil Jon if it were done today.
neither of whom are album oriented artists.
Just sayin, though they ahve sold more albums and their records made mroe headway for the south OUTSIDE of the south than UGK ever did. I love that UGK album but how much headway did it really make? It put them on the map, but it wasn't as if they were able to capitlize on it and make a bigger album. The criteria is a bit muddy and maybe it has to do with the fact that they weren't able to capitilize.
It was a gold record.
More importantly, for many young people in the south, that was their own It takes a Nation of Millions... or Low End Theory.
BTW: Ludacris is popular but influential? Check back in five years. Same most definitely goes for Lil Jon. His sound could seem positively quaint depending on how the winds shift.
If its going to be anyone from the south album wise its gotta be Ludacris and Lil Jon if it were done today.
neither of whom are album oriented artists.
Just sayin, though they ahve sold more albums and their records made mroe headway for the south OUTSIDE of the south than UGK ever did. I love that UGK album but how much headway did it really make? It put them on the map, but it wasn't as if they were able to capitlize on it and make a bigger album. The criteria is a bit muddy and maybe it has to do with the fact that they weren't able to capitilize.
It was a gold record.
More importantly, for many young people in the south, that was their own It takes a Nation of Millions... or Low End Theory.
CMW,8-BallMJG and OutKast got national exposure. UGK didnt.
Just sayin, though they ahve sold more albums and their records made mroe headway for the south OUTSIDE of the south than UGK ever did. I love that UGK album but how much headway did it really make? It put them on the map, but it wasn't as if they were able to capitlize on it and make a bigger album. The criteria is a bit muddy and maybe it has to do with the fact that they weren't able to capitilize.
Was Comptons Most Wated in the book? To me I put them in the same category as UGK They had some dope albums and did make biug moves regionally but never were able to make a national move.
hip hop has always been a notoriously local phenonmenon and as such i think "classic material" should take that into account as well. to whom it may concern and blackstar were appreciated by an equally narrow audience. but had the advantage of the internet nerd and backpack marketing circuts for which disperse that audience on a national basis. if 300,000 people think your record is a classic should it matter whether they're concentrated in the greater houston area or not?
The Geto Boys are of course an important group to note in the annals of texas rap, but sonically and in terms of content I'd put them in a very different catagory than UGK. And while I don't think Music To Driveby would be a terrible choice to include in a book like this, there are a dozen other great LA gangsta rap records to include first.
oliver - i just (finally) ordered a copy of your book so i can argue about it more efficiently. looking forward to it
If its going to be anyone from the south album wise its gotta be Ludacris and Lil Jon if it were done today.
neither of whom are album oriented artists.
Just sayin, though they ahve sold more albums and their records made mroe headway for the south OUTSIDE of the south than UGK ever did. I love that UGK album but how much headway did it really make? It put them on the map, but it wasn't as if they were able to capitlize on it and make a bigger album. The criteria is a bit muddy and maybe it has to do with the fact that they weren't able to capitilize.
It was a gold record.
More importantly, for many young people in the south, that was their own It takes a Nation of Millions... or Low End Theory.
I agree with what you are saying, but It Takes a Nation went past gold and made moves nationally. I dunno i just remember when this album came out (I am up north) it sold but didn't do anything amazing and alot of people weren't looking for it. Where as PE, Geto Boys those made big noise when they dropped. I am not trying to argue against UGK being in the book, i think I am more trying to understand the criteria for an album being accepted verse not ebing accepted because there were so many discrepencies.
and I might ahve been wrong about Outkast, I don;t have the book in frotn of me I just remember reading it and asking why this album this album or this album wasn't in it. i should shut my mouth until I get the book in front of me again.
and I might ahve been wrong about Outkast, I don;t have the book in frotn of me I just remember reading it and asking why this album this album or this album wasn't in it. i should shut my mouth until I get the book in front of me again.
I'm tempted to comment here but I won't. Suffice to say, "Southernplayastic" is most definitely included.
As to this larger question raised by around regional/national...
I think this raises really important points about trying to talk about hip-hop in some kind of all-inclusive, definitive way. As I keep noting - canon-making is a fool's task (though I seem to excel in doing it anyways) - and there are many valid arguments around why the task is well-nigh impossible.
The thing is...I agree with Noz that hip-hop has always been regional on one level. The question is: when does a regional artist/album manage to blow up nationally but more importnatly: does this matter? In other words, should we discount an album that is HUGE for a regional scene if no one outside of that scene cares? Why do we privilege geographic span (i.e. nerd rap that benefits from the internet) or regional importance and album sales (even if it only stays "in region").
I don't think we'd be having this same discussion the same way even just five years ago...which isn't to discount the importance of regional rap scenes but let's face it: hip-hop's identity has largely been dominated by a bi-coastal perspective - NY and LA - and it's only in the last few years that the South has really become dominant and not just treat as a step-child by hip-hop media, pundits, etc. These days, you can't talk about hip-hop without talking about the South. I don't think it was like that 10 years ago despite many popular and important Southern artists of the era.
Comments
O -
No doubt - I'm pretty sure you would've caught more flak if you actually had included more female albums and designated 'em w/ classic status since they're in so short supply to begin w/: it would've appeared as if you and your collaborators were seriously reachin'...
For instance, although tempting to have her in the book owin' to her Marley Marl-produced sides, Shante's legacy is built on a string of 12" singles...
Nah..............Its far from a trash Lp. BUt it shouldnt be on anybodys list.
You're right, but I would definitely put it ahead of any YoYo, Heather B or Boss albums. Probably the only record released by a female MC in the past 15 years that I own.
Kuficulous
Take that schitt to Young Phonic's PM inbox
So Missy ain't a woman now? And I thought you had one of the Mia X CDs?
I don't think of Missy as an MC, but yeah, I forgot about the Mia X stuff that I have.
...So does Oliver "Mark Ass" Wang.
cosine. but i'd be into hearing hear battle. prolly be on some ol' jibber jabber fuschnickens backwards ribb-edy dibb-edy.
sonically she's always been on some next shit. lyrically, ehh.
But she makes great songs and on occassion, a really solid album. Seriously, if the book had been assembled even six months later than it was, I think Missy would have made the cut.
Bahamadia? What Faux said.
Lil Kim - she was in discussion but never rose to the top of the pecking order. That goes double for Foxy.
If its going to be anyone from the south album wise its gotta be Ludacris and Lil Jon if it were done today. And yeh the FIx didn't do well, but Geto Boys first album sold a ton for when it was released and made major noise nationally. If anything scarface's first album should be mentioned too IMO because of the wave he was riding with Geto Boys.
Redman? I would put Dare Iz a Darkside before Whut? The Album, unless it youa re looking at sales. to me that first album had more impact as far as introducing the world to his style. Whut did more saleswise because his name was established and they built off the success of the first album.
And the issue I had with PE and Outkast was I think that it was the wrong albums put in... I think Fear of a Black Planet was in there when IMO it should ahve been It Takes A Nation... And Outkast I think it should have been Southernplaya... instead of what was in there.
Whatever though its all subjective really and your list won't be the same as mine. However Mine is always right ....
cosign. I liked them both but niether was really game changing.
Don't get it twisted: I'm a huge Missy fan, but I think of her as more of an all-around hip-hop entertainer than I do as an MC. Like Li'l Jon, Biz Markie, Doug E. Fresh, or Luke.
neither of whom are album oriented artists.
umm
Yeah, I kind think of her along w/ Lauryn Hill as Blurry Line artists.
That's the thing, though: U.G.K. has put out better and more influential albums than Ludacris, Li'l Jon or just about any other artist of the past decade plus. Not too many artists can mess with their catalog. Straight classics.
Damn, really? Oliver left out Southernplayalistic...? That's my favorite one. Somehow I was thinking that all four Outkast albums that had then been released at that point were included. Speak on it, Oliver.
Just sayin, though they ahve sold more albums and their records made mroe headway for the south OUTSIDE of the south than UGK ever did. I love that UGK album but how much headway did it really make? It put them on the map, but it wasn't as if they were able to capitlize on it and make a bigger album. The criteria is a bit muddy and maybe it has to do with the fact that they weren't able to capitilize.
Was Comptons Most Wated in the book? To me I put them in the same category as UGK They had some dope albums and did make biug moves regionally but never were able to make a national move.
It was a gold record.
More importantly, for many young people in the south, that was their own It takes a Nation of Millions... or Low End Theory.
Check your book dun - Southerplayistic is most definitely in there. Tony reviewed the first four Outkast albums, up to Stankonia.
CMW,8-BallMJG and OutKast got national exposure. UGK didnt.
hip hop has always been a notoriously local phenonmenon and as such i think "classic material" should take that into account as well. to whom it may concern and blackstar were appreciated by an equally narrow audience. but had the advantage of the internet nerd and backpack marketing circuts for which disperse that audience on a national basis. if 300,000 people think your record is a classic should it matter whether they're concentrated in the greater houston area or not?
The Geto Boys are of course an important group to note in the annals of texas rap, but sonically and in terms of content I'd put them in a very different catagory than UGK. And while I don't think Music To Driveby would be a terrible choice to include in a book like this, there are a dozen other great LA gangsta rap records to include first.
oliver - i just (finally) ordered a copy of your book so i can argue about it more efficiently. looking forward to it
I agree with what you are saying, but It Takes a Nation went past gold and made moves nationally. I dunno i just remember when this album came out (I am up north) it sold but didn't do anything amazing and alot of people weren't looking for it. Where as PE, Geto Boys those made big noise when they dropped. I am not trying to argue against UGK being in the book, i think I am more trying to understand the criteria for an album being accepted verse not ebing accepted because there were so many discrepencies.
I'm tempted to comment here but I won't. Suffice to say, "Southernplayastic" is most definitely included.
As to this larger question raised by around regional/national...
I think this raises really important points about trying to talk about hip-hop in some kind of all-inclusive, definitive way. As I keep noting - canon-making is a fool's task (though I seem to excel in doing it anyways) - and there are many valid arguments around why the task is well-nigh impossible.
The thing is...I agree with Noz that hip-hop has always been regional on one level. The question is: when does a regional artist/album manage to blow up nationally but more importnatly: does this matter? In other words, should we discount an album that is HUGE for a regional scene if no one outside of that scene cares? Why do we privilege geographic span (i.e. nerd rap that benefits from the internet) or regional importance and album sales (even if it only stays "in region").
I don't think we'd be having this same discussion the same way even just five years ago...which isn't to discount the importance of regional rap scenes but let's face it: hip-hop's identity has largely been dominated by a bi-coastal perspective - NY and LA - and it's only in the last few years that the South has really become dominant and not just treat as a step-child by hip-hop media, pundits, etc. These days, you can't talk about hip-hop without talking about the South. I don't think it was like that 10 years ago despite many popular and important Southern artists of the era.