You are 100% correct....a "good" lawyer, one who is adept at manipulating the system, gets paid top dollar and can get a guilty man off for his crimes.
The rich hire these "good" lawyers and that is why each and every one of you get to decry that the rich get "special" treatment....they do, and they pay for it.....I think it sucks and I think lawyers, the likes of a Frank Ragano or Murray Richman, who BRAG about getting guilty men set free are sleazebags.....you won't convince me otherwise.
A defense attorney with integrity, who knows his client is guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, will suggest and effectively receive a plea bargain for his client.
Setting a guilty man free based on technicalities is not what our Judiical system was created to do.
Do I know our system isn't perfect, of course.....does that mean those who participate in it shouldn't strive for perfection?... not imo.
I'll grant that attorneys who brag about getting guilty men off should be despised. They should also be disbarred, but not for getting guilty men off. They should be disbarred for bragging about it and breaking attorney/client privilege.
Lots of public defenders with good reason to know their clients are guilty get their clients off, too. It's not just a matter of rich and poor.
Your plea bargain suggestion is an atrocity - any defense attorney who operated that way is a coward who is not living up to his oath and should also be disbarred.
Setting a guilty man free on "technicalities" is EXACTLY what our legal system is supposed to do, and describing rights granted by the Constitution as "technicalities" is not just yahoo talk, it's totalitarian thinking.
If you were arrested for your favorite inhalable vice and your attorney got you off based on "technicalities" like the 4th Amendment or some shoddy lab work I wouldn't think he was doing something unethical or illegal, no matter how sure he was of your guilt. He'd be doing his job, period.
Those vids are almost an hour long.
No way I am watching them.
Can I get a summary?
I went back and watched 75% of them both......it appears to be two cops/ex-cops who are teaching a law class geared towards defense lawyers....they give scenarios about how they "trick" people into confessing a crime. One example was a guy gets pulled over with a car full of stolen goods.....the cop asks if he stole them and the Dude says "No"....The cop then asks if he knew the merchandise was stolen and the dude says "YES"...AH HA!! Now they have him on receipt of stolen property and they would have had nothing if he kept his mouth shut....truth.
Then he shows him a picture of a house and asks if that is the house he had robbed...Dude says "No, it wasn't that one"...AH HA! Now they got him to admit he robbed "a" house, just not this one....dumb ass should have kept his mouth SHUT.
And I agree 100%...If you committed a crime your defense attorney would not want you to talk to the Police....hence.."Don't Talk To The Police".
Those vids are almost an hour long.
No way I am watching them.
Can I get a summary?
The first one (27 min) has all of the examples in it. I don't want to quote the examples, since they are right there in the video (I really enjoyed watching it, but I was also procrastinating). Essentially examples that are not very extreme at all which make the case that saying *anything* to the police, even if you are innocent, only tell the truth, and do not implicate yourself in any way, can end up coming back to bite you in the ass later.
You are 100% correct....a "good" lawyer, one who is adept at manipulating the system, gets paid top dollar and can get a guilty man off for his crimes.
The rich hire these "good" lawyers and that is why each and every one of you get to decry that the rich get "special" treatment....they do, and they pay for it.....I think it sucks and I think lawyers, the likes of a Frank Ragano or Murray Richman, who BRAG about getting guilty men set free are sleazebags.....you won't convince me otherwise.
A defense attorney with integrity, who knows his client is guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, will suggest and effectively receive a plea bargain for his client.
Setting a guilty man free based on technicalities is not what our Judiical system was created to do.
Do I know our system isn't perfect, of course.....does that mean those who participate in it shouldn't strive for perfection?... not imo.
I'll grant that attorneys who brag about getting guilty men off should be despised. They should also be disbarred, but not for getting guilty men off. They should be disbarred for bragging about it and breaking attorney/client privilege.
Lots of public defenders with good reason to know their clients are guilty get their clients off, too. It's not just a matter of rich and poor.
Your plea bargain suggestion is an atrocity - any defense attorney who operated that way is a coward who is not living up to his oath and should also be disbarred.
Setting a guilty man free on "technicalities" is EXACTLY what our legal system is supposed to do, and describing rights granted by the Constitution as "technicalities" is not just yahoo talk, it's totalitarian thinking.
If you were arrested for your favorite inhalable vice and your attorney got you off based on "technicalities" like the 4th Amendment or some shoddy lab work I wouldn't think he was doing something unethical or illegal, no matter how sure he was of your guilt. He'd be doing his job, period.
While not all "procedural technicalities" fall under the 4th Amendment, I hear what you are saying and understand.
Personally, if I was guilty I would plead guilty...I'm also the idiot who pays all his traffic tickets while others I know use a lawyer to "get off" even though they know they committed said infraction.
My initial comment was that lawyers who knowingly get guilty people off are sleazy....they're not breaking the law and I'm certain many would say that not only are they just doing their job, that they are doing it well.
And I seriously can not think of any instance when an innocent person should plea bargain a guilty plea.
And I seriously can not think of any instance when an innocent person should plea bargain a guilty plea.
In the first video posted, the guy presents some realistic situations in which an innocent person can be made to look guilty. I could see an innocent person taking a plea in such situations.
Those vids are almost an hour long.
No way I am watching them.
Can I get a summary?
The first one (27 min) has all of the examples in it. I don't want to quote the examples, since they are right there in the video (I really enjoyed watching it, but I was also procrastinating). Essentially examples that are not very extreme at all which make the case that saying *anything* to the police, even if you are innocent, only tell the truth, and do not implicate yourself in any way, can end up coming back to bite you in the ass later.
So let me ask you....if you witnessed a serious crime would you talk to the Police or would you be too afraid that they might take your words, turn them around on you and charge you with the crime?
And I seriously can not think of any instance when an innocent person should plea bargain a guilty plea.
You should talk with public defenders or legal researchers; this is quite common, especially amongst the very poor.
One scenario where this happens is amongst poor defendants who 1) can't make bail and 2) can't afford quality legal representation who would sit in jail *longer* awaiting trial than what the plea bargain is offering. So the options are:
1) Sit in jail awaiting trial, upon which, if you're found guilty, you're facing more time in jail
OR
2) Plead guilty to a lesser charge and get either time served or a reduced sentence less than what you'd be looking at in scenario #1.
Especially if these are folks who've done jail time before...even if they're innocent of this particular charge, they're doing the math and figuring that the plea is the better way to go, especially if they're unsure about their chances at trial.
This isn't a scenario that most middle class defendants would face since most of them would have the resources to both make bail and hire someone besides a public defender.
The legal system - as it is now - is completely fucked for poor people (who, of course, are disproportionately represented amongst those arrested and prosecuted).
While not all "procedural technicalities" fall under the 4th Amendment, I hear what you are saying and understand.
Personally, if I was guilty I would plead guilty...I'm also the idiot who pays all his traffic tickets while others I know use a lawyer to "get off" even though they know they committed said infraction.
My initial comment was that lawyers who knowingly get guilty people off are sleazy....they're not breaking the law and I'm certain many would say that not only are they just doing their job, that they are doing it well.
And I seriously can not think of any instance when an innocent person should plea bargain a guilty plea.
Then you're not using your imagination very well.
If you're a poor 20 year old kid with a slight build facing a robbery charge and your attorney tells you you can go to trial and probably face 5 years in state prison or you can plea bargain and get 3 months in county jail it's the easiest thing in the world to see why you'd take that deal.
Or you could man up and take your chances. And end up getting raped and beaten for the next five years while the guards laugh at your complaints. Or maybe you end up dead or with nice dose of HIV.
Let's not pretend this stuff doesn't happen. Or that it's hard to understand why people want to avoid it.
Bob & O.....you're both right...those plea scenarios are likely....I being was narrow-minded and just thinking about more serious crimes.
And let's also add that someone who is mentally impaired or troubled is vulnerable to being railroaded into a plea deal for something they didn't do. I don't remember where the professor got his numbers from but he said 25% of convicts exonerated by DNA actually originally plead guilty.
Bob & O.....you're both right...those plea scenarios are likely....I being was narrow-minded and just thinking about more serious crimes.
And let's also add that someone who is mentally impaired or troubled is vulnerable to being railroaded into a plea deal for something they didn't do. I don't remember where the professor got his numbers from but he said 25% of convicts exonerated by DNA actually originally plead guilty.
Agreed
And that reflects corrupt and/or evil people in places including, but not by any means limited to, the Police Dept.
Many of the examples used in the video were tales of corrupt, dishonest and criminal Police.
If you believe this is the rule and not the exception I can understand why you would never talk to the Police.
The Anthony Graves case here in Texas that was featured on TV last week showed a lying and evil District Attorney who railroaded Mr. Graves......criminal.
I see the "Don't Talk To The Police" ever, about anything or under any circumstance lesson as a step backwards for our society..
The ultimate test for what a person truly believes is what they teach their children....and I've taught my kids to respect and cooperate with the Police.
If you think that's wrong we'll have to agree to disagree.
Bob & O.....you're both right...those plea scenarios are likely....I being was narrow-minded and just thinking about more serious crimes.
And let's also add that someone who is mentally impaired or troubled is vulnerable to being railroaded into a plea deal for something they didn't do. I don't remember where the professor got his numbers from but he said 25% of convicts exonerated by DNA actually originally plead guilty.
Agreed
And that reflects corrupt and/or evil people in places including, but not by any means limited to, the Police Dept.
Many of the examples used in the video were tales of corrupt, dishonest and criminal Police.
If you believe this is the rule and not the exception I can understand why you would never talk to the Police.
The Anthony Graves case here in Texas that was featured on TV last week showed a lying and evil District Attorney who railroaded Mr. Graves......criminal.
I see the "Don't Talk To The Police" ever, about anything or under any circumstance lesson as a step backwards for our society..
The ultimate test for what a person truly believes is what they teach their children....and I've taught my kids to respect and cooperate with the Police.
If you think that's wrong we'll have to agree to disagree.
I think the general context of the lecture posted was in the case that you are being questioned regarding a crime in which there is any reason you may be implicated. Being a witness to a crime is completely different. He never says anything about not being a witness. All of his examples involved the police questioning whether you were at all involved in a crime (and many of the examples which were convincing to me did not involve the police being intentionally dishonest or corrupt). So, I think you are taking the phrase "Don't Talk To The Police" out of context when it comes to, for example, pointing someone out in a lineup.
Bob & O.....you're both right...those plea scenarios are likely....I being was narrow-minded and just thinking about more serious crimes.
And let's also add that someone who is mentally impaired or troubled is vulnerable to being railroaded into a plea deal for something they didn't do. I don't remember where the professor got his numbers from but he said 25% of convicts exonerated by DNA actually originally plead guilty.
Agreed
And that reflects corrupt and/or evil people in places including, but not by any means limited to, the Police Dept.
Many of the examples used in the video were tales of corrupt, dishonest and criminal Police.
If you believe this is the rule and not the exception I can understand why you would never talk to the Police.
The Anthony Graves case here in Texas that was featured on TV last week showed a lying and evil District Attorney who railroaded Mr. Graves......criminal.
I see the "Don't Talk To The Police" ever, about anything or under any circumstance lesson as a step backwards for our society..
The ultimate test for what a person truly believes is what they teach their children....and I've taught my kids to respect and cooperate with the Police.
If you think that's wrong we'll have to agree to disagree.
Have you ever been interrogated by police Rock?
I will defiantly tell my kids to say nothing and demand representation until they are (black) & blue in the face even if they are on the fringe of something or by mistake.
Agreed....if you are a criminal, and have committed a crime, do not speak to the Police, or anyone for that matter because that will lessen the odds that your sleazy criminal defense lawyer will get your guilty ass off.
are all criminal defense lawyers sleazy since they inevitably have represented guilty people? if so, are prosecutors equally as sleazy since they have inevitably prosecuted innocent defendants?
I would say a prosecutor who has knowingly prosecuted an innocent person is beyond sleazy and is criminal.
IMO a defense lawyer who counsels clients who they are know are guilty on how to best be found innocent are practicing a sleazy profession and I don't know how they sleep at night.
as to the part about prosecutors - there is a hierarchy at any DA's office (that goes for AG and Federal Prosecutor's too). have you ever been to a criminal hearing that is not a major jury case? the assistant da's are there with stacks of cases and they run right threw them.
i have defended innocent defendants and it is nearly impossible to get the ada's to drop cases. in one instance, i had a defendant who was charged with trespassing after an employee at a restaurant saw my client walking on their fire escape and reported him to the police. in fact, my client lived above the restaurant and had dropped his phone on their fire escape while sitting on his deck. no matter, the police took the employee's word (as a private criminal complaint) and arrested him. i spoke to the owner of the building and he was willing to come forward and testify that my client had permission to retrieve his phone. moreover, the employee really didn't have standing to file a private criminal complaint as he was neither a tenant, nor an owner. at the preliminary hearing, i went up to the ada and gave her the owner's cell phone number and said please call him so we can get rid of this case. she did, but refused to drop it saying that her supervisors orders were to prosecute every case with a witness. the judge ended up tossing it, but this is just one example....where the stakes were very low by the way (it was a misdemeanor). you have a lot of ada's with zero authority to dismiss cases based on their subjective view of the innocence of the defendant.
i could tell you another story about a recent fabricated domestic violence charge against a doctor (by an ex girlfriend) that is just as unsettling, but it's a much longer tale.
as to what you wrote about defense lawyers, if that is how you feel, then you have a problem with our constitution.
i've had (with the help of an attorney) to teach how to maneuver around these situation to the innercity youth i work with
basically in my city there is an overwhelming majority of black youth getting arrested or randomnly questioned by the police. Given the high% of them on probation a 40 drink in the park at 10pm on a Wednesday can go horribly wrong if you don't handle it properly.
The don't talk to the police under any circumstance is like the stop snitching movement in its fast spread and misconstrued manner.
I've taught them to cooperate (show ID, answer limited questions) when they have done nothing wrong because refusal to cooperate can lead to more difficult situations (both legal and illegal police procedures) and to ask for their attorney if they are on probation. More often than not however youth defendants face an uphill battle to say the least. Social workers, youth detention, community police and immigration officials are part of the same smooth operating team. Various levels of pressure can be added to the mix from different sources that directly affect the youth's life. On the other hand defending your rights can lead to you getting abused and a police report filing is the best ''justice'' you will get.
I will defiantly tell my kids to say nothing and demand representation until they are (black) & blue in the face even if they are on the fringe of something or by mistake.
Yes, you don't look like me and not get scrutinized by the police....I've twice been mistakenly questioned as a suspect in a gas station robbery and a murder(s) here in Texas..... the latter was because I drove the same model car as a suspect that had murdered 3 people at a Motel less than a mile from where I lived......the police showed up at my home later that night to "make sure I was who I said I was" and seemed shocked that I owned a nice home....the suspect was caught a few weeks later and his car did look just like mine.
I was arrested and charged with various "crimes" on Sunset Blvd. in the 70's...they called my Dad in NY who told them to "Lock me up"... they dropped most of the charges and I walked out a few hours later with promise I would show up in court to pay fines for things like Jaywalking and Loitering.
In upstate NY I was questioned for drug possession on the operating table of a Hospital after being in a car wreck and was threatened to be put "in the barracks".
In every case above I was co-operative, honest and forthcoming................. other than the slight inconvenience, there were no horror stories of crooked cops who railroaded me to prison, although at least one cop asked, twice, in seeming total astonishment if I "really" had never spent any time in prison.
I am POSITIVE that I could have acted in a way that would have lead to a much more harrowing experience in every case.
Respect and Co-Operation is how I recommend everyone deal with the police.....based on these and other experiences.
I've probably been hassled by the cops at least as much, if not more, than anyone here.
For years I had hair past my shoulders and drove a graffiti-covered VW camper, I was pulled over and checked out dozens of times, many of them in small rural towns. Add to that the fact that I lived for years as one of the few white people living on avenue C/D in the East Village (in the late 80's), where I was regularly put up against the wall while walking to and from my apartment. In all, I'm easily talking 40 or more incidents, including one where I was surrounded by FBI agents with their guns out.
Every time I was respectful and forthcoming, but firm in my rights. If you are clear and can speak your position there will seldom be a problem. I was never arrested, beaten or abused in any other way than the occasional search (which I was always prepared for). I knew that I looked out of place and like a freak to many people and accepted that as the price to live my life how I wanted.
If I had clammed up like some here are suggesting there is no doubt that I would have been taken in, roughed up and slapped with bogus charges, which don't always get dismissed. It's easy as hell for a cop to frame you if they want - why give them a reason to?.
Every single cop out there will interpret clamming up as = to guilty of something.
Sorry, but this is terrible advice that would only be given by people who don't know how to deal with authority.
I've probably been hassled by the cops at least as much, if not more, than anyone here.
For years I had hair past my shoulders and drove a graffiti-covered VW camper, I was pulled over and checked out dozens of times, many of them in small rural towns. Add to that the fact that I lived for years as one of the few white people living on avenue C/D in the East Village (in the late 80's), where I was regularly put up against the wall while walking to and from my apartment. In all, I'm easily talking 40 or more incidents, including one where I was surrounded by FBI agents with their guns out.
Every time I was respectful and forthcoming, but firm in my rights. If you are clear and can speak your position there will seldom be a problem. I was never arrested, beaten or abused in any other way than the occasional search (which I was always prepared for). I knew that I looked out of place and like a freak to many people and accepted that as the price to live my life how I wanted.
If I had clammed up like some here are suggesting there is no doubt that I would have been taken in, roughed up and slapped with bogus charges, which don't always get dismissed. It's easy as hell for a cop to frame you if they want - why give them a reason to?.
Every single cop out there will interpret clamming up as = to guilty of something.
Sorry, but this is terrible advice that would only be given by people who don't know how to deal with authority.
I wouldn't necessarily advise not cooperating BEFORE an arrest, but once you're arrested, fuck it. Shut up until your lawyer gets there.
And of course it's always stupid to be openly disrespectful to a cop who is just doing his job as he sees it, even if he's a prick who's just rousting a longhair or what have you. It's a no-win situation, because the cop will always win.
I will defiantly tell my kids to say nothing and demand representation until they are (black) & blue in the face even if they are on the fringe of something or by mistake.
Yes, you don't look like me and not get scrutinized by the police....I've twice been mistakenly questioned as a suspect in a gas station robbery and a murder(s) here in Texas..... the latter was because I drove the same model car as a suspect that had murdered 3 people at a Motel less than a mile from where I lived......the police showed up at my home later that night to "make sure I was who I said I was" and seemed shocked that I owned a nice home....the suspect was caught a few weeks later and his car did look just like mine.
I was arrested and charged with various "crimes" on Sunset Blvd. in the 70's...they called my Dad in NY who told them to "Lock me up"... they dropped most of the charges and I walked out a few hours later with promise I would show up in court to pay fines for things like Jaywalking and Loitering.
In upstate NY I was questioned for drug possession on the operating table of a Hospital after being in a car wreck and was threatened to be put "in the barracks".
In every case above I was co-operative, honest and forthcoming................. other than the slight inconvenience, there were no horror stories of crooked cops who railroaded me to prison, although at least one cop asked, twice, in seeming total astonishment if I "really" had never spent any time in prison.
I am POSITIVE that I could have acted in a way that would have lead to a much more harrowing experience in every case.
Respect and Co-Operation is how I recommend everyone deal with the police.....based on these and other experiences.
Ok, I've had differnet experiences, mind you all when I was a shit of a kid. I've been beaten badly on a few occasions as a suspect and harrassed incessantly, once resulting in me signing a fabricated statement which named known associates. the shit got squashed after an investigation but still it was a real eye opener.
I guess I'm saying what everyone is saying, know your rights, be as cooperative and respectful as you can but I will never say anything about a crime where I am a suspect without representation, and I'll tell my kids the same thing.
i've had (with the help of an attorney) to teach how to maneuver around these situation to the innercity youth i work with
basically in my city there is an overwhelming majority of black youth getting arrested or randomnly questioned by the police. Given the high% of them on probation a 40 drink in the park at 10pm on a Wednesday can go horribly wrong if you don't handle it properly.
The don't talk to the police under any circumstance is like the stop snitching movement in its fast spread and misconstrued manner.
I've taught them to cooperate (show ID, answer limited questions) when they have done nothing wrong because refusal to cooperate can lead to more difficult situations (both legal and illegal police procedures) and to ask for their attorney if they are on probation. More often than not however youth defendants face an uphill battle to say the least. Social workers, youth detention, community police and immigration officials are part of the same smooth operating team. Various levels of pressure can be added to the mix from different sources that directly affect the youth's life. On the other hand defending your rights can lead to you getting abused and a police report filing is the best ''justice'' you will get.
Invaluable advise, on more than one occasion I've had defending my rights go awry on me, once resulting in a beatdown and being robbed by the cops and another being held and questioned without charge for hours as soon they saw me enter government property, ie; a train station.
I've probably been hassled by the cops at least as much, if not more, than anyone here.
For years I had hair past my shoulders and drove a graffiti-covered VW camper, I was pulled over and checked out dozens of times, many of them in small rural towns. Add to that the fact that I lived for years as one of the few white people living on avenue C/D in the East Village (in the late 80's), where I was regularly put up against the wall while walking to and from my apartment. In all, I'm easily talking 40 or more incidents, including one where I was surrounded by FBI agents with their guns out.
Every time I was respectful and forthcoming, but firm in my rights. If you are clear and can speak your position there will seldom be a problem. I was never arrested, beaten or abused in any other way than the occasional search (which I was always prepared for). I knew that I looked out of place and like a freak to many people and accepted that as the price to live my life how I wanted.
If I had clammed up like some here are suggesting there is no doubt that I would have been taken in, roughed up and slapped with bogus charges, which don't always get dismissed. It's easy as hell for a cop to frame you if they want - why give them a reason to?.
Every single cop out there will interpret clamming up as = to guilty of something.
Sorry, but this is terrible advice that would only be given by people who don't know how to deal with authority.
I wouldn't necessarily advise not cooperating BEFORE an arrest, but once you're arrested, fuck it. Shut up until your lawyer gets there.
Yeah, I agree with this.
But avoid getting arrested at ALL costs, if you can.
I wouldn't necessarily advise not cooperating BEFORE an arrest, but once you're arrested, fuck it. Shut up until your lawyer gets there.
Yeah, I agree with this.
But avoid getting arrested at ALL costs, if you can.
Agreed on both counts.
My initial advice way up thread to keep silent is directed primarily at those who are accused of committing a crime, i.e. those who have been or are about to be placed under arrest. Respectful cooperation is the quickest way to get an unwelcome interaction with the police to end. It won't always bring the interaction to an end, however, and the minute it seems like things are taking on a wrong sort of "I'm about to get arrested" sort of tone, that's when my legal spidey sense goes off. The question I advise my friends to ask at that point is this:
Officer, am I free to leave?
If the answer is yes, then you should respectfully bring the conversation to a close and leave. If the answer is no, then there are Fourth Amendment consequences for the situation. Specifically, the moment that you are not free to leave is the moment that you have been detained. And under the Fourth Amendment, in order for that detention to be reasonable, the police officer must have probable cause to arrest you. They might or might not have probable cause, but you want to document the moment where they are detaining you in case of an unlawful arrest or unlawful search that might follow.
People should be respectful towards police, but people should also know their rights. People should NOT have conversations about their rights with police officers in the middle of unwelcome interactions with police officers. Those conversations usually end badly for the suspect,
Comments
I'll grant that attorneys who brag about getting guilty men off should be despised. They should also be disbarred, but not for getting guilty men off. They should be disbarred for bragging about it and breaking attorney/client privilege.
Lots of public defenders with good reason to know their clients are guilty get their clients off, too. It's not just a matter of rich and poor.
Your plea bargain suggestion is an atrocity - any defense attorney who operated that way is a coward who is not living up to his oath and should also be disbarred.
Setting a guilty man free on "technicalities" is EXACTLY what our legal system is supposed to do, and describing rights granted by the Constitution as "technicalities" is not just yahoo talk, it's totalitarian thinking.
If you were arrested for your favorite inhalable vice and your attorney got you off based on "technicalities" like the 4th Amendment or some shoddy lab work I wouldn't think he was doing something unethical or illegal, no matter how sure he was of your guilt. He'd be doing his job, period.
I went back and watched 75% of them both......it appears to be two cops/ex-cops who are teaching a law class geared towards defense lawyers....they give scenarios about how they "trick" people into confessing a crime. One example was a guy gets pulled over with a car full of stolen goods.....the cop asks if he stole them and the Dude says "No"....The cop then asks if he knew the merchandise was stolen and the dude says "YES"...AH HA!! Now they have him on receipt of stolen property and they would have had nothing if he kept his mouth shut....truth.
Then he shows him a picture of a house and asks if that is the house he had robbed...Dude says "No, it wasn't that one"...AH HA! Now they got him to admit he robbed "a" house, just not this one....dumb ass should have kept his mouth SHUT.
And I agree 100%...If you committed a crime your defense attorney would not want you to talk to the Police....hence.."Don't Talk To The Police".
The first one (27 min) has all of the examples in it. I don't want to quote the examples, since they are right there in the video (I really enjoyed watching it, but I was also procrastinating). Essentially examples that are not very extreme at all which make the case that saying *anything* to the police, even if you are innocent, only tell the truth, and do not implicate yourself in any way, can end up coming back to bite you in the ass later.
While not all "procedural technicalities" fall under the 4th Amendment, I hear what you are saying and understand.
Personally, if I was guilty I would plead guilty...I'm also the idiot who pays all his traffic tickets while others I know use a lawyer to "get off" even though they know they committed said infraction.
My initial comment was that lawyers who knowingly get guilty people off are sleazy....they're not breaking the law and I'm certain many would say that not only are they just doing their job, that they are doing it well.
And I seriously can not think of any instance when an innocent person should plea bargain a guilty plea.
In the first video posted, the guy presents some realistic situations in which an innocent person can be made to look guilty. I could see an innocent person taking a plea in such situations.
So let me ask you....if you witnessed a serious crime would you talk to the Police or would you be too afraid that they might take your words, turn them around on you and charge you with the crime?
You should talk with public defenders or legal researchers; this is quite common, especially amongst the very poor.
One scenario where this happens is amongst poor defendants who 1) can't make bail and 2) can't afford quality legal representation who would sit in jail *longer* awaiting trial than what the plea bargain is offering. So the options are:
1) Sit in jail awaiting trial, upon which, if you're found guilty, you're facing more time in jail
OR
2) Plead guilty to a lesser charge and get either time served or a reduced sentence less than what you'd be looking at in scenario #1.
Especially if these are folks who've done jail time before...even if they're innocent of this particular charge, they're doing the math and figuring that the plea is the better way to go, especially if they're unsure about their chances at trial.
This isn't a scenario that most middle class defendants would face since most of them would have the resources to both make bail and hire someone besides a public defender.
The legal system - as it is now - is completely fucked for poor people (who, of course, are disproportionately represented amongst those arrested and prosecuted).
Then you're not using your imagination very well.
If you're a poor 20 year old kid with a slight build facing a robbery charge and your attorney tells you you can go to trial and probably face 5 years in state prison or you can plea bargain and get 3 months in county jail it's the easiest thing in the world to see why you'd take that deal.
Or you could man up and take your chances. And end up getting raped and beaten for the next five years while the guards laugh at your complaints. Or maybe you end up dead or with nice dose of HIV.
Let's not pretend this stuff doesn't happen. Or that it's hard to understand why people want to avoid it.
And let's also add that someone who is mentally impaired or troubled is vulnerable to being railroaded into a plea deal for something they didn't do. I don't remember where the professor got his numbers from but he said 25% of convicts exonerated by DNA actually originally plead guilty.
Agreed
And that reflects corrupt and/or evil people in places including, but not by any means limited to, the Police Dept.
Many of the examples used in the video were tales of corrupt, dishonest and criminal Police.
If you believe this is the rule and not the exception I can understand why you would never talk to the Police.
The Anthony Graves case here in Texas that was featured on TV last week showed a lying and evil District Attorney who railroaded Mr. Graves......criminal.
I see the "Don't Talk To The Police" ever, about anything or under any circumstance lesson as a step backwards for our society..
The ultimate test for what a person truly believes is what they teach their children....and I've taught my kids to respect and cooperate with the Police.
If you think that's wrong we'll have to agree to disagree.
I think the general context of the lecture posted was in the case that you are being questioned regarding a crime in which there is any reason you may be implicated. Being a witness to a crime is completely different. He never says anything about not being a witness. All of his examples involved the police questioning whether you were at all involved in a crime (and many of the examples which were convincing to me did not involve the police being intentionally dishonest or corrupt). So, I think you are taking the phrase "Don't Talk To The Police" out of context when it comes to, for example, pointing someone out in a lineup.
Have you ever been interrogated by police Rock?
I will defiantly tell my kids to say nothing and demand representation until they are (black) & blue in the face even if they are on the fringe of something or by mistake.
as to the part about prosecutors - there is a hierarchy at any DA's office (that goes for AG and Federal Prosecutor's too). have you ever been to a criminal hearing that is not a major jury case? the assistant da's are there with stacks of cases and they run right threw them.
i have defended innocent defendants and it is nearly impossible to get the ada's to drop cases. in one instance, i had a defendant who was charged with trespassing after an employee at a restaurant saw my client walking on their fire escape and reported him to the police. in fact, my client lived above the restaurant and had dropped his phone on their fire escape while sitting on his deck. no matter, the police took the employee's word (as a private criminal complaint) and arrested him. i spoke to the owner of the building and he was willing to come forward and testify that my client had permission to retrieve his phone. moreover, the employee really didn't have standing to file a private criminal complaint as he was neither a tenant, nor an owner. at the preliminary hearing, i went up to the ada and gave her the owner's cell phone number and said please call him so we can get rid of this case. she did, but refused to drop it saying that her supervisors orders were to prosecute every case with a witness. the judge ended up tossing it, but this is just one example....where the stakes were very low by the way (it was a misdemeanor). you have a lot of ada's with zero authority to dismiss cases based on their subjective view of the innocence of the defendant.
i could tell you another story about a recent fabricated domestic violence charge against a doctor (by an ex girlfriend) that is just as unsettling, but it's a much longer tale.
as to what you wrote about defense lawyers, if that is how you feel, then you have a problem with our constitution.
basically in my city there is an overwhelming majority of black youth getting arrested or randomnly questioned by the police. Given the high% of them on probation a 40 drink in the park at 10pm on a Wednesday can go horribly wrong if you don't handle it properly.
The don't talk to the police under any circumstance is like the stop snitching movement in its fast spread and misconstrued manner.
I've taught them to cooperate (show ID, answer limited questions) when they have done nothing wrong because refusal to cooperate can lead to more difficult situations (both legal and illegal police procedures) and to ask for their attorney if they are on probation. More often than not however youth defendants face an uphill battle to say the least. Social workers, youth detention, community police and immigration officials are part of the same smooth operating team. Various levels of pressure can be added to the mix from different sources that directly affect the youth's life. On the other hand defending your rights can lead to you getting abused and a police report filing is the best ''justice'' you will get.
Yes, you don't look like me and not get scrutinized by the police....I've twice been mistakenly questioned as a suspect in a gas station robbery and a murder(s) here in Texas..... the latter was because I drove the same model car as a suspect that had murdered 3 people at a Motel less than a mile from where I lived......the police showed up at my home later that night to "make sure I was who I said I was" and seemed shocked that I owned a nice home....the suspect was caught a few weeks later and his car did look just like mine.
I was arrested and charged with various "crimes" on Sunset Blvd. in the 70's...they called my Dad in NY who told them to "Lock me up"... they dropped most of the charges and I walked out a few hours later with promise I would show up in court to pay fines for things like Jaywalking and Loitering.
In upstate NY I was questioned for drug possession on the operating table of a Hospital after being in a car wreck and was threatened to be put "in the barracks".
In every case above I was co-operative, honest and forthcoming................. other than the slight inconvenience, there were no horror stories of crooked cops who railroaded me to prison, although at least one cop asked, twice, in seeming total astonishment if I "really" had never spent any time in prison.
I am POSITIVE that I could have acted in a way that would have lead to a much more harrowing experience in every case.
Respect and Co-Operation is how I recommend everyone deal with the police.....based on these and other experiences.
The justice system should punish all the guilty to the same degree.
The justice system should protect all the innocent.
You should be respectful to the police and offer your help if you are witness to a major property or violent crime.
I agree.
For years I had hair past my shoulders and drove a graffiti-covered VW camper, I was pulled over and checked out dozens of times, many of them in small rural towns. Add to that the fact that I lived for years as one of the few white people living on avenue C/D in the East Village (in the late 80's), where I was regularly put up against the wall while walking to and from my apartment. In all, I'm easily talking 40 or more incidents, including one where I was surrounded by FBI agents with their guns out.
Every time I was respectful and forthcoming, but firm in my rights. If you are clear and can speak your position there will seldom be a problem. I was never arrested, beaten or abused in any other way than the occasional search (which I was always prepared for). I knew that I looked out of place and like a freak to many people and accepted that as the price to live my life how I wanted.
If I had clammed up like some here are suggesting there is no doubt that I would have been taken in, roughed up and slapped with bogus charges, which don't always get dismissed. It's easy as hell for a cop to frame you if they want - why give them a reason to?.
Every single cop out there will interpret clamming up as = to guilty of something.
Sorry, but this is terrible advice that would only be given by people who don't know how to deal with authority.
I wouldn't necessarily advise not cooperating BEFORE an arrest, but once you're arrested, fuck it. Shut up until your lawyer gets there.
And of course it's always stupid to be openly disrespectful to a cop who is just doing his job as he sees it, even if he's a prick who's just rousting a longhair or what have you. It's a no-win situation, because the cop will always win.
Ok, I've had differnet experiences, mind you all when I was a shit of a kid. I've been beaten badly on a few occasions as a suspect and harrassed incessantly, once resulting in me signing a fabricated statement which named known associates. the shit got squashed after an investigation but still it was a real eye opener.
I guess I'm saying what everyone is saying, know your rights, be as cooperative and respectful as you can but I will never say anything about a crime where I am a suspect without representation, and I'll tell my kids the same thing.
Invaluable advise, on more than one occasion I've had defending my rights go awry on me, once resulting in a beatdown and being robbed by the cops and another being held and questioned without charge for hours as soon they saw me enter government property, ie; a train station.
Yeah, I agree with this.
But avoid getting arrested at ALL costs, if you can.
Yeah, I agree with this.
But avoid getting arrested at ALL costs, if you can.
Agreed on both counts.
My initial advice way up thread to keep silent is directed primarily at those who are accused of committing a crime, i.e. those who have been or are about to be placed under arrest. Respectful cooperation is the quickest way to get an unwelcome interaction with the police to end. It won't always bring the interaction to an end, however, and the minute it seems like things are taking on a wrong sort of "I'm about to get arrested" sort of tone, that's when my legal spidey sense goes off. The question I advise my friends to ask at that point is this:
Officer, am I free to leave?
If the answer is yes, then you should respectfully bring the conversation to a close and leave. If the answer is no, then there are Fourth Amendment consequences for the situation. Specifically, the moment that you are not free to leave is the moment that you have been detained. And under the Fourth Amendment, in order for that detention to be reasonable, the police officer must have probable cause to arrest you. They might or might not have probable cause, but you want to document the moment where they are detaining you in case of an unlawful arrest or unlawful search that might follow.
People should be respectful towards police, but people should also know their rights. People should NOT have conversations about their rights with police officers in the middle of unwelcome interactions with police officers. Those conversations usually end badly for the suspect,
Be advised.
SOULSTRUT LEGAL (TM)