BBE British Bootlegging Enterprises

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  • BreezBreez 1,706 Posts
    This is silly to ask, coz me & Dave are in the same city but what happened to him??? Me & You had this discussion before. He just fell off the face of the earth. I hope nothing serious happened.

  • BBE have been slightly lazy in the past regarding licensing but have improved, it would seem they did license this in good faith from what you are saying. I don't usually discuss business like this but they made good with a license i owned and paid promptly. Coming to a gentleman's agreement may be a more mutually beneficial way to move forward. With licensing old records people make mistakes, sometimes you have to pay two people for one license. Everything is not always black and white, labels think they own stuff when they dont have any documents, artists or writers think they own stuff when the label has documentation showing they dont. It can be a minefield and most stand up labels will help each other or come to an agreement when confusion arises. This can be disappointing if work has been put into something but that's life. Long term its better to get along with people and work in a mutually beneficial manner, even if you know some people are not working quite as hard on their paperwork. It took me some time to learn this btw, i used to battle.

    Yes this is the way to go and some good advice!

  • NateBizzoNateBizzo 2,328 Posts
    You guys should let the artist decide if he wants to get paid twice or if he prefers to be exclusive with one person or another with regards to where his music is released.

    Seems a bit over the top to not want it to get out as much as possible, if in fact it is for the "artist."

  • dukeofdelridgedukeofdelridge urgent.monkey.mice 2,441 Posts
    Heavy.

    [x] I was here.

  • djsheepdjsheep 3,640 Posts
    Heavy.

    [x] I was here.

  • LokoOneLokoOne 1,823 Posts
    Don't want to stand up for anybody here, but that whole "diggers exploiting third world patrimony without giving money back like it shoud be" tirade is ridiculous and hypocritical as hell. Every in-the-field diggers have one day or another faced the fact to take advantage of people selling records for no good reasons. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the kind of behaviour like on high fidelity movie scene with the woman former husband collection don't reflect the reality AT ALL, 99% of us would bought all of the collection for cheap in an instant, no matter where you are on the planet.
    Don't start with this all of you or it would just show how racist and colonialist-minded you are, by differentiating poor/average people from Africa and the same from your own country..



    Now back to the main event....

    BTW- Could we settle this with a battle.

    Frank vs Kon & Amir....

    Shit maybe it can be turned into a series of releases (but probably not on BBE)

  • E_DailyE_Daily 812 Posts
    Just listened to "boogie trip"


  • It's very clear how serious that quote was meant.

    In any case, I have many times freely mentioned that I used to hate Disco.

    Like for example here

    Or on numerous posts on this very forum.

    I get into new types of music every now and then. Sometimes I'm surprised myself. It's fun.

    You got some great 2-digit post zombies coming out of the cobwebs for your support Kon.


    Have the stage for yourself or what's left of it.


    I've had my say and my fun and I'm out of here.


  • benawbenaw 3 Posts
    I have never posted here before but was alerted to this thread by some friends--

    1. A little while back Samy Benredjeb asked DJ Frank to take a few tracks off his blog/podcast that he (Samy) had properly licensed for reissue on Analog Africa. Frank told him to fuck off. To this day there are tracks on the blog that are properly licensed by Samy.

    2. Going to west Africa, telling local people that their records are only worth small money, then flying back to wherever and Ebaying them for hundreds-- this is pure colonalism.

    3. A question: Don't real diggers find their own records? Or is it OK to pay small boys a buck to find stuff for you?

    4. DJ Frank really should care about what people on the scene think. There's only a handful of people involved, and Frank, though he is a newbie, has managed to create a dangerously bad rep for himself.

  • djsheepdjsheep 3,640 Posts
    I have never posted here before but was alerted to this thread by some friends--

    1. A little while back Samy Benredjeb asked DJ Frank to take a few tracks off his blog/podcast that he (Samy) had properly licensed for reissue on Analog Africa. Frank told him to fuck off. To this day there are tracks on the blog that are properly licensed by Samy.

    2. Going to west Africa, telling local people that their records are only worth small money, then flying back to wherever and Ebaying them for hundreds-- this is pure colonalism.

    3. A question: Don't real diggers find their own records? Or is it OK to pay small boys a buck to find stuff for you?

    4. DJ Frank really should care about what people on the scene think. There's only a handful of people involved, and Frank, though he is a newbie, has managed to create a dangerously bad rep for himself.

    Welcome to SoulStrut. How many Leo Sayer records do you have in your crates tough guy?

  • FlomotionFlomotion 2,391 Posts
    I have never posted here before but was alerted to this thread by some friends--

    1. A little while back Samy Benredjeb asked DJ Frank to take a few tracks off his blog/podcast that he (Samy) had properly licensed for reissue on Analog Africa. Frank told him to fuck off. To this day there are tracks on the blog that are properly licensed by Samy.

    2. Going to west Africa, telling local people that their records are only worth small money, then flying back to wherever and Ebaying them for hundreds-- this is pure colonalism.

    3. A question: Don't real diggers find their own records? Or is it OK to pay small boys a buck to find stuff for you?

    4. DJ Frank really should care about what people on the scene think. There's only a handful of people involved, and Frank, though he is a newbie, has managed to create a dangerously bad rep for himself.

    Samy did get a hard time from a lot of people on here, somewhat unfairly, but this is a different legal issue although with some of the same moral dimensions. Your post seems kind of personal so I'm guessing you are connected to this story somehow. Points 2 and 3 are just silly. Point 4 sounds like a veiled threat from someone 'on the scene'. Where do you fit into all this Mr Benaw?

  • SoulhawkSoulhawk 3,197 Posts
    Yes, I bought all the records from Good Records or yourself for this record...soo fucking what? that makes me less of a digger??





  • Imperial_MaoImperial_Mao 1,119 Posts


    1. A little while back Samy Benredjeb asked DJ Frank to take a few tracks off his blog/podcast that he (Samy) had properly licensed for reissue on Analog Africa. Frank told him to fuck off. To this day there are tracks on the blog that are properly licensed by Samy.





    x 10,000

    Glass houses etc...

  • DocMcCoyDocMcCoy "Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,921 Posts
    How is this not a good look?

    If Frank put those tracks on his podcast, then presumably he owns copies of the o.g's, right? So, how does that infringe the terms of Samy Benredjeb's license (as opposed to outright ownership of the sound recordings, I'm presuming)? Is Samy going to step to every DJ who plays an o.g. of those songs in a club or on the radio (which is, effectively all a podcast is) and ask them not to play them because he obtained a (possibly non-exclusive) license for them?

    It'd be a different matter if we were talking about Frank posting a rip of Samy's comp. Then we'd be talking about a product Samy owned the rights to, and he would be completely within his rights to ask him to pull it. If the o.g. label/rights owner, rather than the licensee, asked Frank to take the songs off his blog and he told them to fuck off, then that would be

    The issue between Frank and BBE/Kon & Amir is essentially about competing products (at a massive stretch) and who has the proper licenses, and ultimately it's about who gets there first. Samy Benredjeb seems to think licensing a master means he can stop people from broadcasting the record, and I doubt his rights extend that far.

    I found myself in the middle of similar kinds of beef in my days clearing samples - people calling up and asking me not to grant approval to a song that uses the same sample as something they're trying to clear, or asking for six-month periods of exclusivity so nobody else can get a sample of a particular song approved during that time. This tends to happen a lot in the world of cheesy dance-pop, and I know a bunch of people who've had their ideas and concepts stolen because they've been slow out of the block or simply haven't got the proper clearances.

    I once spent the best part of an hour talking to some guy who claimed that a massive Europe-wide dance-pop hit was his work, and he'd been ripped off. He'd recorded this tune, pressed up a bunch of white labels, headed out to Ibiza and gave copies to as many key DJs as he could, dropping the rest off in the main record stores on the island. Within weeks, it was getting played everywhere. Unbeknownst to him, a bunch of likely lads had heard his track and asked around about it. Upon finding out it was an anonymous white label, they got hold of a copy and shot back to England to do their own version of it. Where they stole a march on our hapless hero was that they cleared the huge sample use in it (even got a bit of the publishing on it too), which he hadn't even thought to do. I had to tell him that, even if these lads had ripped him off (which they've obviously never admitted to), his track was effectively a bootleg or an infringement of the sample owner's rights, so he didn't have a leg to stand on. All he could say was, "But it was my idea..."

    Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled programming...

  • BeatnicholasBeatnicholas 1,005 Posts
    at a total loss for words here.

  • benawbenaw 3 Posts
    I'm an american musician living in Berlin. I've been working with some of the west African musicians who have done license deals with some of the people you've all been talking about. I've seen a bunch of contracts and needless to say, it's pretty wack. I don't mind as much if these people just say they are going to Africa to exploit the poor local people, but when they say they are helping the african cats they you just know it's pure crap. In this case of the disco track, obviously it would be better for the composer/producer if it was released a bunch of times. DJ Frank wants to be exclusive and cool, but he's depriving the old Nigerian guy of money. Which is really mean, considering how big and rich DJ Frank is and how poor the older musicians in west Africa are.

    I think it's bad to go to a small country with limited internet access (ghanaians have no idea that these old records are going for up to 800 Eur) and lie to the people about the value of their product. In normal business there are regulations, but in this case, it's just mean and exploitative. On the flipside, the only record dealer in Accra thinks all his records, no matter how bad the condition is, are worth 50 bucks because "that's what the tattoo man (DJ Frank) pays".

    Another example: I work with the great Ghanaian guitarist Ebo Taylor. We are helping him compile a Best Of comp. Since the labels are now defunct, Ebo (along with the producer) has the full copyright to a lot of the tracks. Some good labels are interested. Only, Uncle Ebo doesn't have clean copies of his own records. The only people who surely do are Miles, Samy, DJ Frank etc. None of them have been forthcoming to help the old man out, let him license his own music so he can make a bit of money (they tend to pay around 300$ a track) to get through the year in the village. I haven't asked DJ Frank yet, by the way.

    So yes, the moral side is more important in my point of view. Music is about feelings.

    I'm definitely not making any veiled threat. No threat at all. Even though DJ Frank has a terrible rep here in Berlin (no comment on soulpusher and the soul explosion franchise), I've never met him. Plus he helped my friend Nico (Pax Nicholas) get a reissue deal. But the scene is so small, it would be so much cooler if everyone could work together, do some touring festivals with different DJs and bands, make the thing really nice for everyone.

  • FrankFrank 2,444 Posts
    Just when I though I was out -they pull me back in...

    It's beyond lame to say your goodbyes to a thread and a forum and then be back but hey, I can't let this stand. I just can't.

    In this case of the disco track, obviously it would be better for the composer/producer if it was released a bunch of times. DJ Frank wants to be exclusive and cool, but he's depriving the old Nigerian guy of money. Which is really mean, considering how big and rich DJ Frank is and how poor the older musicians in west Africa are.

    With all the yelling and name calling people seem to forget what the core of this licensing disagreement really is. This is very clear from the email conversation I posted at the very top of this thread:

    The scenario was that we licensed from the Producer/author/financer of the record. BBE didn't license anthign and when caught with their pants down they made a bogus contract with the son of the owner of the record label and then THEY threatened US with legal action!

    The claimed that the artist and producer never owned the rights to this recording!

    They didn't count on us finding access to the original contract to prove them otherwise.

    Now they're in the shitter and their sketchy ways and K&As insults, schoolyard threats etc have degraded the situation to a point where I have no choice but force them to feed their CDs in the shredder.

    Would BBE have had their way. The son of the label owner would have pocketed the royalties, nobody else and the son of the label never owned the copyright. His fathers deistribution rights to the song expired in 1985.






    I think it's bad to go to a small country with limited internet access (ghanaians have no idea that these old records are going for up to 800 Eur)

    There are plenty of internet cafes in all major or even smaller cities in every West African country I know.

    If I find something like the Kelenkye or the blue Marijata, I pay $100 to $200 if the condition is right. Still enough profit for me to be made. Should I pay $400 for a $800 record? Sometimes what was a $800 record suddenly sells for $500 or less. Plus there are travel expenses, plane tickets, bus tickets, hotel bills, fuel, bush taxis etc... I could tell you that none of the other collectors or dealers who go to Africa for records pay nearly as much as I do but you know all that already. I even provide my agents with links to ebay auctions. They get paid very generously for their work. Generous enough to make them stop selling to anyone else, obviously including you and that's why you're mad. So what? I have a bad rep with some faceless broke ass fuckers I never met, who will never mean shit to me just because I'm the reason they can't buy their African Rears at $1 a pop. That's a bad rep I can live with very comfortably.




    Another example: I work with the great Ghanaian guitarist Ebo Taylor. We are helping him compile a Best Of comp. Since the labels are now defunct, Ebo (along with the producer) has the full copyright to a lot of the tracks. Some good labels are interested. Only, Uncle Ebo doesn't have clean copies of his own records. The only people who surely do are Miles, Samy, DJ Frank etc. None of them have been forthcoming to help the old man out, let him license his own music so he can make a bit of money (they tend to pay around 300$ a track) to get through the year in the village. I haven't asked DJ Frank yet, by the way.

    I know that other labels have signed some Ebo taylor material. This was why I told Ebo when I was on the phone with him last January while in Accra that I can't license anything from him because people have been licensing from his old record label and I don't want to sign stuff from him because the label technically owns this stuff and even owns some master tapes, I think.

    I would not hesitate to give you recordings of any of Ebo's records. I have clean copies of all of them and I have given records to people for re-mastering before like for example for Mile's Ghana box set.





    I haven't asked DJ Frank yet, by the way.


    I've never met him.

    Plus he helped my friend Nico (Pax Nicholas) get a reissue deal.

    But still you know that I'm a bad person because

    Frank has a terrible rep here in Berlin (no comment on soulpusher and the soul explosion franchise)

    Sunshine, the Soul Explosion is Europe's longest running and best attended Deep Funk event. Having a bad rep among some jealous bottom feeders back in Berlin means absolutely nothing to me. Just stay away from the party if you don't like it. Stay at home and take deep belly breaths. Your pony tail would violate our dress code anyway.


    But this last quote is by far the funniest



    "I think it's bad to go to a small country with limited internet access (ghanaians have no idea that these old records are going for up to 800 Eur) and lie to the people about the value of their product. In normal business there are regulations, but in this case, it's just mean and exploitative. On the flipside, the only record dealer in Accra thinks all his records, no matter how bad the condition is, are worth 50 bucks because "that's what the tattoo man (DJ Frank) pays"..."



    Well shit... if the tattoo man outpays pony tail boy then I guess pony tail is best advised to look out for another sand box to play in. Just don't take chocolates from strangers.




  • djsheepdjsheep 3,640 Posts
    How is this not a good look?

    If Frank put those tracks on his podcast, then presumably he owns copies of the o.g's, right? So, how does that infringe the terms of Samy Benredjeb's license (as opposed to outright ownership of the sound recordings, I'm presuming)? Is Samy going to step to every DJ who plays an o.g. of those songs in a club or on the radio (which is, effectively all a podcast is) and ask them not to play them because he obtained a (possibly non-exclusive) license for them?

    It'd be a different matter if we were talking about Frank posting a rip of Samy's comp. Then we'd be talking about a product Samy owned the rights to, and he would be completely within his rights to ask him to pull it. If the o.g. label/rights owner, rather than the licensee, asked Frank to take the songs off his blog and he told them to fuck off, then that would be

    The issue between Frank and BBE/Kon & Amir is essentially about competing products (at a massive stretch) and who has the proper licenses, and ultimately it's about who gets there first. Samy Benredjeb seems to think licensing a master means he can stop people from broadcasting the record, and I doubt his rights extend that far.

    I found myself in the middle of similar kinds of beef in my days clearing samples - people calling up and asking me not to grant approval to a song that uses the same sample as something they're trying to clear, or asking for six-month periods of exclusivity so nobody else can get a sample of a particular song approved during that time. This tends to happen a lot in the world of cheesy dance-pop, and I know a bunch of people who've had their ideas and concepts stolen because they've been slow out of the block or simply haven't got the proper clearances.

    I once spent the best part of an hour talking to some guy who claimed that a massive Europe-wide dance-pop hit was his work, and he'd been ripped off. He'd recorded this tune, pressed up a bunch of white labels, headed out to Ibiza and gave copies to as many key DJs as he could, dropping the rest off in the main record stores on the island. Within weeks, it was getting played everywhere. Unbeknownst to him, a bunch of likely lads had heard his track and asked around about it. Upon finding out it was an anonymous white label, they got hold of a copy and shot back to England to do their own version of it. Where they stole a march on our hapless hero was that they cleared the huge sample use in it (even got a bit of the publishing on it too), which he hadn't even thought to do. I had to tell him that, even if these lads had ripped him off (which they've obviously never admitted to), his track was effectively a bootleg or an infringement of the sample owner's rights, so he didn't have a leg to stand on. All he could say was, "But it was my idea..."

    Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled programming...

    blah blah blah. how many leo sayer records do you have?

  • whenever im diggin and i find endless flight, i always put it at the front of the row

  • djsheepdjsheep 3,640 Posts
    hahaa, i do the same, but i've started putting fliers for my gigs up in them now!

  • OkemOkem 4,617 Posts
    Yes. (same with all the other classics)

  • HarveyCanalHarveyCanal "a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
    My 2 cents...as one of the first to call Frank out on this board, like 2 years ago...all I gotta say is that good music is better than you dudes being egomaniac assholes surrounding it. Does Frank, or Kon and Amir for that matter, deserve a lil bit of compensation/recognition for digging up unknown gems to make us all say whoa! Yeah sure, that's fine...but you bitches take it waaaay too far on some look at me, me, me ish.

  • djsheepdjsheep 3,640 Posts
    anyone up to anything interesting this week??

  • benawbenaw 3 Posts



    There are plenty of internet cafes in all major or even smaller cities in every West African country I know.
    If you've really been to Africa as much as you say you have, and you really were with regular people, then you know only very young people actuvely use the internet, and then just Facebook and Myspace. Ebay is impossible and anyway, the old musicians do't have a clue about that kind of stuff.


    At first I thought I'm an evil exploiter who buys records for cheap and now I'm evil for messing up prices so you can't buy records for cheap yourself?

    I'm just a poor a musician, not a rich record dealer. Just wanted to listen to the music.



    I know that Samy has signed some Ebo taylor material. This was why I told Ebo when I was on the phone with him last January while in Accra that I can't license anything from him because people have been licensing from his old record label and I don't want to sign stuff from him because the label techincally owns this stuff and even owns some master tapes, I think.

    All the material (45 tracks) that we collected is either all Ebo's, 50/50 with George Prah, and the Apagya stuff is between Ebo and Essiebons. The label owns the stuff but Ebo as the composer gets a fee according to Ghanaian copyright law.

    I also know that Ebo Taylor is only a short time away from becoming a very wealthy man. So don't worry about him too much. He's going to be more than alright.

    You must be talking about this publishing money for the track Heaven? I talk to Ebo a lot, and know he will not be a very wealthy man, but it will help a lot, considering he couldn't pay his electricity last month.

    I would not hesitate to give you recordings of any of Ebo's records. I have clean copies of all of them and I have given records to people for re-mastering before. For example two super rare 45s that were included on Mile's Ghana box set.

    That's nice of you. I'll contact you on your blog about this.


    My bad rep in berlin is with people who for years were jealous of my party Soul Explosion. They got even madder when I moved away from Berlin 5 years ago and subletted the party to my friend who still to this day runs it very successfully. The party is now in its 10th year and still has an average crowd of 400, at the new venue in Kreuzberg recently even more than 700. Not bad for a funk 45 party I'd say. Why do people go there for 10 years now if I have such a bad rep in Berlin?

    well, I disagree with you here. It's not all about how successful something is. McDonald's sells the most burgers but that's not the proof that it's a good burger. You do the most advertising, again spending the most, so you get most of the tourists and whatever. I guess people are really turned off by the endless self-promotion. By the way, PLEASE get a new DJ for the Kreuzberg soul explosion. It's exceedingly embarassing how unfunky he is. Even for Germany. I mean really a lot of people notice.

  • djsheepdjsheep 3,640 Posts

  • FrankFrank 2,444 Posts





    If you've really been to Africa as much as you say you have, and you really were with regular people, then you know only very young people actuvely use the internet, and then just Facebook and Myspace. Ebay is impossible and anyway, the old musicians do't have a clue about that kind of stuff.



    I just received a bunch of emails from Orlando Julius this last week.

    Gyedu Blay Ambolley has his own website.

    I send links to ebay auctions to all my agents so they see which records are worth what money. Why is ebay impossible?

    of course only the younger people or people who depend on email etc for their busienss use the internet but amongst everybody under 30 years it's very common to hang out at the internet cafe. Even the most remote towns in Forest Guinea have internet cafes. More developed countries like Ghana, even Benin and especially Nigeria there are internet cafes everywhere.

    I've lived in West Africa for 3 years, nowadays spend at least one month of the year over there.

    You're suggesting that I'm lying? What is it with you, you don't know me as you admitt yourself but still you think you know all these bad things about me?

    These were the visa stamps in my passport 2 years ago.
    In the meantime I have only two pages left.

    All of these are stamps from West African border crossings and visa entries from West African countries.

    Proof enough for you?



  • spelunkspelunk 3,400 Posts
    Uh yeah just because a label no longer exists does not mean that the rights to the music magically drift over to the artist. This is not fairyland.

    Also people whining about record dealers in Africa, South America, etc. charging lots of money for records need to check themselves. Homeboy charging $50 a pop in Africa just has more game than you.

  • inVrsinVrs 687 Posts
    there is so much "look at me" ego bullsh*t in this thread, NAGL for real.

  • Hello kind sir,

    My name is Tony and I am the son of a wealthy prince in Nigeria. Recently, due to a government hang up, our asset were frozen in the bank here in Nigeria. I kindly ask you assistance in helping us. I would like to wire you $300,000 and in return for this you can keep $50,000. All that I ask is that you send us some African disco and or funky funk on original pressing clean African label. I will need this to innitiate the transaction. Thank you in advance for your assistance and I look forward to doing business with you.

    Kind regards,

    Tony African Prince

  • djsheepdjsheep 3,640 Posts
    I think it's about time the moderators stepped in and closed this thread. People are looking worse off than when they first opened their mouth. Sure, it's in the whole SoulStrut spirit, but I think it's about time that Kon, Amir and Frank exchanged numbers on the PM and spoke about this personally.

    peace.

    FYI I ride for Kon, Amir and Frank. All good people in my books, and massive respect to all parties.
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