So is this an idea to financially reward teachers who are more "successful"?? What is NCLB? How will people determine what is "successful"? There are lots of worthwhile things that go on in schools that are not measurable in passes & fails. This is an interesting concept but one that I think will be extremely difficult to implement correctly.
NCLB=NoChildLeftBehind.
One way to determine successful is to let administrators, teachers, parents and students rate teachers.
Another is to allow the school principle to determine who is most successful.
Another would be to test the teachers.
Testing students is not a good way to determine much of anything beyond which students are good at taking tests.
For many years I made the rounds at our local Public Schools annuallly putting on a "Mr. Wizard-like" science show for grades 1-5. To this day I meet young adults that remember me from these 'shows".
rock: thats really great that you used to do those science shows. respect.
i agree with everything harvey said. and most of what spelunk said..
keep in mind, the "smartest" students dont necessarily translate into being good teachers. the teach for america program is actually very selective of their young folks...GPA, heavy recruiting at the best colleges, etc.
But still, nothing beats a teacher who can engage/stimulate/or connect with students.academic experitise gpa and credentials dont always translate.
also, teaching positions pay pretyt well if you have a masters...starting at $60K in philly, i believe. plus 3 months off! thats not that bad. ive got a lot of unrelated short term plans, but something is telling me i want to be an official high school teacher some time soon. F*ck what anyone at the bar thinks. they can all retreat to their boardroom meeting in their bmws after licking my balls.
60 k starting is unheard of. With a masters degree my district, second largest in Cali, starts at 40 K. Tops out at 70k after twenty years or something. Sucks. That's why I'm applying for my administrator credential. That and the idea that I need to move beyond the classroom to make any real change.
How would I get merit pay for my class of gangbangers with learning disabilities? Most kids ditch during testing. If that's how I'm judged then I'm screwed.
But I would love to see shitty teachers get the boot despite what my union says.
It is harder to remove bad teachers, than it is to identify excellent ones.
This is an aside, but did anyone catch This American Life this past week? The piece about the "Rubber Room" of the New York School System was crazy. Teachers getting paid to sit in a room for a year or two while waiting for their 'day in court' is crazy talk.
Harvey, your a teacher right? I know your very skeptical about Obama, interested to hear your thoughts on what would help. I've heard Obama in the past talk about addressing the lack of funding that could've helped NCLB be more effective, and now this. Seems pretty common sense to me.
Ron Paul has called for the abolishing of public schools (not in '08) and more recently, the Dept of Education. He's voted against increasing various kinds of funding, and has supported home schooling, school prayer, and vouchers. Are these positions closer to your own, or is there something else you think would help?
I'm not a certified teacher. I'm a community volunteer who teaches an afterschool program once a week.
I don't really think of the education problem as something that can be solved from Capitol Hill.
But yeah, a big problem that I've seen is failing teachers who without the proper support from administrators blame their own failures on parents.
To all teachers out there: It is your job to keep the kids interested and engaged in whatever the subject matter may be. And if you can't do that in regard to even the most "troubled" of kids, then it is you who have failed.
Sure, your administrators probably aren't directing you towards the tactics and tools that would better help you in succeeding. But dammit, you are a teacher with access to plenty of resources of your own devices and you should be able to figure it out on your own.
And to all of you skilled professionals out there: Find a way to get into the schools at least every once in awhile and break the kids/teachers off a bit of your vocational expertise. We've been able to do that here in Austin through the nationwide CitizenSchools program. But there are many other ways to skin that cat.
Schools are far too institutionalized nowadays, and far too many are nothing short of glorified prisons. So quit trying to wait on the Obama's of the world to do something (yeah, right) and do it yourself by getting involved.
Harvey - I respect your opinion on the educational system, but I think your calling out of the teachers misses the real blame with the educational system...the parents of the children. My wife teaches 5th grade in a suburb township of Indianapolis. The demographic of her students is low income with most living in Sec 8 Apartments or mobile homes. She receives absolutely zero support from the parents of her students. She spends her afternoon after school is out by calling multiple parents to inform them that their childeren are not doing (turning-in) their homework. The usual response from the parents is somewhere between indifference and annoyance. They couldn't care less whether or not their children learn anything. The same goes for discipline. My wife has been yelled at, pushed, and had items thrown at her by students but the only response from the parents is that she is picking on their child..oh, really. Its next to impossible for a teacher to keep a child "engaged" in education when there is no importance put on education in the household along with the fact that most teachers spend the large part of their day discipling (which should be done at home)rather than teaching. I am the ultimate pessimist and my wife is the total optimist. Up to this year, she really thought she could reach (save ) every child. Last month she came home and broke down in tears because she knew she was never going to be able reach these students in her classroom.
Sucks. That's why I'm applying for my administrator credential. That and the idea that I need to move beyond the classroom to make any real change.
Anna, Most of the complaints I hear about our local(corrupt) Dallas Independent School District is that we have one administrator for every 2 teachers. Good and caring teachers feel that they can make real change in the classroom on an individual basis. But most of my teacher friends say the administrators are overpaid and under used as far as actual teaching goes. I'm assuming that the reason you want to become an adminsitrator is to make changes in ciriculum, teaching methods, etc. But in reality do these administrators really have that much impact?? I'd think if they did we wouldn't have the problems we currently have. especially at that 1:2 ratio. Educate me.
she knew she was never going to be able reach these students in her classroom.
[humorous aside]How do I reach these keeds?![/b][/humorous aside]
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Harvey, your a teacher right? I know your very skeptical about Obama, interested to hear your thoughts on what would help. I've heard Obama in the past talk about addressing the lack of funding that could've helped NCLB be more effective, and now this. Seems pretty common sense to me.
Ron Paul has called for the abolishing of public schools (not in '08) and more recently, the Dept of Education. He's voted against increasing various kinds of funding, and has supported home schooling, school prayer, and vouchers. Are these positions closer to your own, or is there something else you think would help?
I'm not a certified teacher. I'm a community volunteer who teaches an afterschool program once a week.
I don't really think of the education problem as something that can be solved from Capitol Hill.
But yeah, a big problem that I've seen is failing teachers who without the proper support from administrators blame their own failures on parents.
To all teachers out there: It is your job to keep the kids interested and engaged in whatever the subject matter may be. And if you can't do that in regard to even the most "troubled" of kids, then it is you who have failed.
Sure, your administrators probably aren't directing you towards the tactics and tools that would better help you in succeeding. But dammit, you are a teacher with access to plenty of resources of your own devices and you should be able to figure it out on your own.
And to all of you skilled professionals out there: Find a way to get into the schools at least every once in awhile and break the kids/teachers off a bit of your vocational expertise. We've been able to do that here in Austin through the nationwide CitizenSchools program. But there are many other ways to skin that cat.
Schools are far too institutionalized nowadays, and far too many are nothing short of glorified prisons. So quit trying to wait on the Obama's of the world to do something (yeah, right) and do it yourself by getting involved.
Harvey - I respect your opinion on the educational system, but I think your calling out of the teachers misses the real blame with the educational system...the parents of the children. My wife teaches 5th grade in a suburb township of Indianapolis. The demographic of her students is low income with most living in Sec 8 Apartments or mobile homes. She receives absolutely zero support from the parents of her students. She spends her afternoon after school is out by calling multiple parents to inform them that their childeren are not doing (turning-in) their homework. The usual response from the parents is somewhere between indifference and annoyance. They couldn't care less whether or not their children learn anything. The same goes for discipline. My wife has been yelled at, pushed, and had items thrown at her by students but the only response from the parents is that she is picking on their child..oh, really. Its next to impossible for a teacher to keep a child "engaged" in education when there is no importance put on education in the household along with the fact that most teachers spend the large part of their day discipling (which should be done at home)rather than teaching. I am the ultimate pessimist and my wife is the total optimist. Up to this year, she really thought she could reach (save ) every child. Last month she came home and broke down in tears because she knew she was never going to be able reach these students in her classroom.
I can certainly sympathize with your wife's situation. But I work with those same troubled kids whose parents supposedly or even accurately don't do what they need to be doing at home...and guess what? Present to them a curriculum that they see value in and do it in a manner that is respectful to the kids on THEIR LEVEL...and watch those career bad kids get right to work. Point being, there is ALWAYS a way. Possibly, your wife just hasn't figured out her way yet. Again, I know how frustrating it can be, and where she is now, it's probably going to take additional support from her admins and/or further training/consultations/etc. But the fact of the matter is that NO kid is impossible to teach effectively. And any adult who says so needs to reevaluate.
I can certainly sympathize with your wife's situation. But I work with those same troubled kids whose parents supposedly or even accurately don't do what they need to be doing at home...and guess what? Present to them a curriculum that they see value in and do it in a manner that is respectful to the kids on THEIR LEVEL...and watch those career bad kids get right to work. Point being, there is ALWAYS a way. Possibly, your wife just hasn't figured out her way yet. Again, I know how frustrating it can be, and where she is now, it's probably going to take additional support from her admins and/or further training/consultations/etc. But the fact of the matter is that NO kid is impossible to teach effectively. And any adult who says so needs to reevaluate.
Harvey,
I both respect what you do and believe you make an impact but I must ask this question...... do you have the same success teaching things like math and science as you do music?? I'm going to assume that getting kids excited about the prospect of performing and recording music is a lot easier than getting them excited about some of the very basic skills that they will need to be successful in life beyond music?
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
I can certainly sympathize with your wife's situation. But I work with those same troubled kids whose parents supposedly or even accurately don't do what they need to be doing at home...and guess what? Present to them a curriculum that they see value in and do it in a manner that is respectful to the kids on THEIR LEVEL...and watch those career bad kids get right to work. Point being, there is ALWAYS a way. Possibly, your wife just hasn't figured out her way yet. Again, I know how frustrating it can be, and where she is now, it's probably going to take additional support from her admins and/or further training/consultations/etc. But the fact of the matter is that NO kid is impossible to teach effectively. And any adult who says so needs to reevaluate.
Harvey,
I both respect what you do and believe you make an impact but I must ask this question...... do you have the same success teaching things like math and science as you do music?? I'm going to assume that getting kids excited about the prospect of performing and recording music is a lot easier than getting them excited about some of the very basic skills that they will need to be successful in life beyond music?
We teach music as a vocational thing...all leading to ways that the kids could make money off of their musical endeavors now, let alone when they graduate years down the line. Of course on one hand math and science don't offer the easy entry point to teaching that music does, but on another concepts of math and science can be presented in a billion different ways that could instantly make the kids realize the worth of the subject matter to their own lives. Making education practical is what is all about nowadays.
Teachers do in fact need to convince their students why they need to learn each and every thing they are trying to teach. And if a teacher can't do that convincing convincingly, then they have failed at an important and integral facet of their jobs.
...concepts of math and science can be presented in a billion different ways that could instantly make the kids realize the worth of the subject matter to their own lives. Making education practical is what is all about nowadays.
I disagree with this. I've read/seen/tried a few different math learning "tricks" and have had discussions with others in this field who are way against any kind of silly methods. Most have explained that a no nonsense approach (an "old school" method) is what needs to be done. Math/Science needs to be practiced and studied to really be understood. Takes a lot of hard work IMO.
Teachers do in fact need to convince their students why they need to learn each and every thing they are trying to teach. And if a teacher can't do that convincing convincingly, then they have failed at an important and integral facet of their jobs.
I think is a good point. Convincing students of the importance of math/science is a good place to start but a lot of this shit should start at home.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Teachers shouldn't even be worrying themselves with what is or isn't happening at home. Signs of abuse...yes. But kids come to school alone, without their parents. And while parental support can certainly be helpful for teachers, I don't get this now-seemingly-universal shrugging of the shoulders from ineffective teachers who want to give up and blame parents. Kids of all walks of life and from all sorts of varying backgrounds come to school and it's the teachers responsibility to figure out how to learn them something, even if and especially when their parents are rotten.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
...concepts of math and science can be presented in a billion different ways that could instantly make the kids realize the worth of the subject matter to their own lives. Making education practical is what is all about nowadays.
I disagree with this. I've read/seen/tried a few different math learning "tricks" and have had discussions with others in this field who are way against any kind of silly methods. Most have explained that a no nonsense approach (an "old school" method) is what needs to be done. Math/Science needs to be practiced and studied to really be understood. Takes a lot of hard work IMO.
And hold up, you disagree with the idea of making math and science practical? Noone's talking silly tricks here. You can teach compounding interest by bringing in a bag of Skittles and illustrating how you get more on top of more candy as the interest accrues. Real simple shit like that is all I'm talking about here. Give them a reason to want to learn...either by showing how the lesson relates to their life and/or through positive reinforcements. All of this arcane you're going to learn my old school way out of duty shit is long gone as a viable method in most schools today. Cool if some teachers can pull it off, but every classroom is different.
Teachers shouldn't even be worrying themselves with what is or isn't happening at home. Signs of abuse...yes. But kids come to school alone, without their parents. And while parental support can certainly be helpful for teachers, I don't get this now-seemingly-universal shrugging of the shoulders from ineffective teachers who want to give up and blame parents. Kids of all walks of life and from all sorts of varying backgrounds come to school and it's the teachers responsibility to figure out how to learn them something, even if and especially when their parents are rotten.
Okay, I call bullshit. Parents have to be involved or the rest is fairly pointless. My wife can't go to every child's house every night and make sure they do their homework or study for their test. The parents need to have some clue and say hey.."did you have homework tonight?...can I check it?" or simply go thru their child's backpack and see whats going on. This fairly quaint idea that if you are creative enough as a teacher that you can reach any student sounds like it came from an afterschool special or ,worse, a hollywood movie. I always enjoy the week report cards go home and the parents call my wife because they had no idea that little Bobby was failing 4 subjects...they must have forgotten about the 3 notes, 4 voice mails, and 5 emails that my wife sent them concerning Bobby's progress..it must have slipped their mind..dumbasses. Lastly, how can my wife not worry about what's happening at home if it directly affects her? The least of which is kids staying up to midnight on school nights and then fall asleep in class to the extreme of dad and brother selling drugs out the house..that my affect the child in class. Right now its just talk, but the governor wants to start holding parents more responsible..I say charge them with neglect.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Teachers shouldn't even be worrying themselves with what is or isn't happening at home. Signs of abuse...yes. But kids come to school alone, without their parents. And while parental support can certainly be helpful for teachers, I don't get this now-seemingly-universal shrugging of the shoulders from ineffective teachers who want to give up and blame parents. Kids of all walks of life and from all sorts of varying backgrounds come to school and it's the teachers responsibility to figure out how to learn them something, even if and especially when their parents are rotten.
Okay, I call bullshit. Parents have to be involved or the rest is fairly pointless. My wife can't go to every child's house every night and make sure they do their homework or study for their test. The parents need to have some clue and say hey.."did you have homework tonight?...can I check it?" or simply go thru their child's backpack and see whats going on. This fairly quaint idea that if you are creative enough as a teacher that you can reach any student sounds like it came from an afterschool special or ,worse, a hollywood movie. I always enjoy the week report cards go home and the parents call my wife because they had no idea that little Bobby was failing 4 subjects...they must have forgotten about the 3 notes, 4 voice mails, and 5 emails that my wife sent them concerning Bobby's progress..it must have slipped their mind..dumbasses. Lastly, how can my wife not worry about what's happening at home if it directly affects her? The least of which is kids staying up to midnight on school nights and then fall asleep in class to the extreme of dad and brother selling drugs out the house..that my affect the child in class. Right now its just talk, but the governor wants to start holding parents more responsible..I say charge them with neglect.
A teacher has no control over what goes on at home for a student. So teachers in situations where they know parents aren't up on their jobs should act accordingly...not just say it's the parents' fault and give up. Seriously, you're dismissing improved and more refined teaching methods the teacher does have under her control for state-sponsored retribution against parents???
In some classrooms, homework just isn't going to get done. So does a teacher of such a classroom just beat their head on the wall insisting on something that is basically impossible under their power. Or do teachers adjust their curriculum and their approach to fit the situation?
Some parents don't care if their kids flunk out of school. So does the teacher of said children just send note after note home even after knowing it won't make a difference? Or does the teacher find a way to make that difference themself?
The educational climate has changed. And teachers need to quit sticking with their outmoded models that clearly don't work in order to find new ones that will actually work.
Teachers shouldn't even be worrying themselves with what is or isn't happening at home. Signs of abuse...yes. But kids come to school alone, without their parents. And while parental support can certainly be helpful for teachers, I don't get this now-seemingly-universal shrugging of the shoulders from ineffective teachers who want to give up and blame parents. Kids of all walks of life and from all sorts of varying backgrounds come to school and it's the teachers responsibility to figure out how to learn them something, even if and especially when their parents are rotten.
Okay, I call bullshit. Parents have to be involved or the rest is fairly pointless. My wife can't go to every child's house every night and make sure they do their homework or study for their test. The parents need to have some clue and say hey.."did you have homework tonight?...can I check it?" or simply go thru their child's backpack and see whats going on. This fairly quaint idea that if you are creative enough as a teacher that you can reach any student sounds like it came from an afterschool special or ,worse, a hollywood movie. I always enjoy the week report cards go home and the parents call my wife because they had no idea that little Bobby was failing 4 subjects...they must have forgotten about the 3 notes, 4 voice mails, and 5 emails that my wife sent them concerning Bobby's progress..it must have slipped their mind..dumbasses. Lastly, how can my wife not worry about what's happening at home if it directly affects her? The least of which is kids staying up to midnight on school nights and then fall asleep in class to the extreme of dad and brother selling drugs out the house..that my affect the child in class. Right now its just talk, but the governor wants to start holding parents more responsible..I say charge them with neglect.
A teacher has no control over what goes on at home for a student. So teachers in situations where they know parents aren't up on their jobs should act accordingly...not just say it's the parents' fault and give up. Seriously, you're dismissing improved and more refined teaching methods the teacher does have under her control for state-sponsored retribution against parents???
In some classrooms, homework just isn't going to get done. So does a teacher of such a classroom just beat their head on the wall insisting on something that is basically impossible under their power. Or do teachers adjust their curriculum and their approach to fit the situation?
Some parents don't care if their kids flunk out of school. So does the teacher of said children just send note after note home even after knowing it won't make a difference? Or does the teacher find a way to make that difference themself?
The educational climate has changed. And teachers need to quit sticking with their outmoded models that clearly don't work in order to find new ones that will actually work.
Sadly, I don't think this is possible on a large scale. How much time does the average student spend with each teacher in a week vs. time spent at home/outside of school? I don't know how much even the best intentions/methods of any teacher can do to counteract the worst home situations. These problems and their solutions are bigger than the educational system.
I do seriously admire and respect you for making the contribution you do for the kids in your area, Harvey.
Sucks. That's why I'm applying for my administrator credential. That and the idea that I need to move beyond the classroom to make any real change.
Anna, Most of the complaints I hear about our local(corrupt) Dallas Independent School District is that we have one administrator for every 2 teachers. Good and caring teachers feel that they can make real change in the classroom on an individual basis. But most of my teacher friends say the administrators are overpaid and under used as far as actual teaching goes. I'm assuming that the reason you want to become an adminsitrator is to make changes in ciriculum, teaching methods, etc. But in reality do these administrators really have that much impact?? I'd think if they did we wouldn't have the problems we currently have. especially at that 1:2 ratio. Educate me.
well, that ratio sounds super high, at the district office we have administrators such as deputy superintendents, program managers etc, but many working there are teachers and support staff. My school is a small school, one of six on a campus, we have one administrator and about twenty teachers. Comprehensive high schools have one principal, three or so vice principals and about 80-100 teachers.
I know I make change in the classroom, but I am constantly running into ridiculous roadblocks and obstacles and that's why I want to be in a leadership position. It will take a while to get where I can do big things, but that's my plan.
Harvey...the problem is that instead of changing the teaching style or methods they are just lowering the bar so the kids "pass" so that the school gets their tax dollars which are predicated on having kids "pass". I believe this is what Barack wants to change first and foremost.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Teachers shouldn't even be worrying themselves with what is or isn't happening at home. Signs of abuse...yes. But kids come to school alone, without their parents. And while parental support can certainly be helpful for teachers, I don't get this now-seemingly-universal shrugging of the shoulders from ineffective teachers who want to give up and blame parents. Kids of all walks of life and from all sorts of varying backgrounds come to school and it's the teachers responsibility to figure out how to learn them something, even if and especially when their parents are rotten.
Okay, I call bullshit. Parents have to be involved or the rest is fairly pointless. My wife can't go to every child's house every night and make sure they do their homework or study for their test. The parents need to have some clue and say hey.."did you have homework tonight?...can I check it?" or simply go thru their child's backpack and see whats going on. This fairly quaint idea that if you are creative enough as a teacher that you can reach any student sounds like it came from an afterschool special or ,worse, a hollywood movie. I always enjoy the week report cards go home and the parents call my wife because they had no idea that little Bobby was failing 4 subjects...they must have forgotten about the 3 notes, 4 voice mails, and 5 emails that my wife sent them concerning Bobby's progress..it must have slipped their mind..dumbasses. Lastly, how can my wife not worry about what's happening at home if it directly affects her? The least of which is kids staying up to midnight on school nights and then fall asleep in class to the extreme of dad and brother selling drugs out the house..that my affect the child in class. Right now its just talk, but the governor wants to start holding parents more responsible..I say charge them with neglect.
A teacher has no control over what goes on at home for a student. So teachers in situations where they know parents aren't up on their jobs should act accordingly...not just say it's the parents' fault and give up. Seriously, you're dismissing improved and more refined teaching methods the teacher does have under her control for state-sponsored retribution against parents???
In some classrooms, homework just isn't going to get done. So does a teacher of such a classroom just beat their head on the wall insisting on something that is basically impossible under their power. Or do teachers adjust their curriculum and their approach to fit the situation?
Some parents don't care if their kids flunk out of school. So does the teacher of said children just send note after note home even after knowing it won't make a difference? Or does the teacher find a way to make that difference themself?
The educational climate has changed. And teachers need to quit sticking with their outmoded models that clearly don't work in order to find new ones that will actually work.
Sadly, I don't think this is possible on a large scale. How much time does the average student spend with each teacher in a week vs. time spent at home/outside of school? I don't know how much even the best intentions/methods of any teacher can do to counteract the worst home situations. These problems and their solutions are bigger than the educational system.
I do seriously admire and respect you for making the contribution you do for the kids in your area, Harvey.
Thank you, it's my pleasure to do the work.
But yeah, times have changed. Even good parents often wonder why kids get homework to do when they already spend 7-9 hours in school each day already. So many single parents nowadays too with jobs of their own, there really isn't that much time, let alone energy left to do much pitching in on their kids' schoolwork. But again, this is stuff we all already know. The question is what is going to be done about it. And I will contend all day that teachers are in the best position to be figuring that out.
Sucks. That's why I'm applying for my administrator credential. That and the idea that I need to move beyond the classroom to make any real change.
Anna, Most of the complaints I hear about our local(corrupt) Dallas Independent School District is that we have one administrator for every 2 teachers. Good and caring teachers feel that they can make real change in the classroom on an individual basis. But most of my teacher friends say the administrators are overpaid and under used as far as actual teaching goes. I'm assuming that the reason you want to become an adminsitrator is to make changes in ciriculum, teaching methods, etc. But in reality do these administrators really have that much impact?? I'd think if they did we wouldn't have the problems we currently have. especially at that 1:2 ratio. Educate me.
well, that ratio sounds super high, at the district office we have administrators such as deputy superintendents, program managers etc, but many working there are teachers and support staff. My school is a small school, one of six on a campus, we have one administrator and about twenty teachers. Comprehensive high schools have one principal, three or so vice principals and about 80-100 teachers.
I know I make change in the classroom, but I am constantly running into ridiculous roadblocks and obstacles and that's why I want to be in a leadership position. It will take a while to get where I can do big things, but that's my plan.
Sounds like you're in a much better situation than what we have here in Dallas....I think 2 of our last 4 District heads is in jail.
Comments
NCLB=NoChildLeftBehind.
One way to determine successful is to let administrators, teachers, parents and students rate teachers.
Another is to allow the school principle to determine who is most successful.
Another would be to test the teachers.
Testing students is not a good way to determine much of anything beyond which students are good at taking tests.
Up next: Merit pay for cops?
Do you think President Obama will support/promote that??
This is a more important issue, and perhaps easier to identify.
It is harder to remove bad teachers, than it is to identify excellent ones.
DC's superintendent has been clearing dead wood.
She might also have merit pay structure in place.
She is a super star of educational reform.
rock: thats really great that you used to do those science shows. respect.
i agree with everything harvey said. and most of what spelunk said..
keep in mind, the "smartest" students dont necessarily translate into being good teachers. the teach for america program is actually very selective of their young folks...GPA, heavy recruiting at the best colleges, etc.
But still, nothing beats a teacher who can engage/stimulate/or connect with students.academic experitise gpa and credentials dont always translate.
also, teaching positions pay pretyt well if you have a masters...starting at $60K in philly, i believe. plus 3 months off! thats not that bad. ive got a lot of unrelated short term plans, but something is telling me i want to be an official high school teacher some time soon.
F*ck what anyone at the bar thinks. they can all retreat to their boardroom meeting in their bmws after licking my balls.
How would I get merit pay for my class of gangbangers with learning disabilities? Most kids ditch during testing. If that's how I'm judged then I'm screwed.
But I would love to see shitty teachers get the boot despite what my union says.
anna,not that its nothing new...but heaps of respect for what you do. i hope you get the appreciation and admiration you deserve
Sayin'. I learned more from countless hours at the library as a child than I did from public school. (Bookworm past revealed)
anna, i was way off...i was factoring in steps for teachers entering with education experience.
If the only thing that came of any type of legislation was to remove the bad teachers, it would be worth the trouble.
To hear my wife tell it, there is a ton of dead weight in her school alone.
This is an aside, but did anyone catch This American Life this past week? The piece about the "Rubber Room" of the New York School System was crazy. Teachers getting paid to sit in a room for a year or two while waiting for their 'day in court' is crazy talk.
http://thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=350
Harvey - I respect your opinion on the educational system, but I think your calling out of the teachers misses the real blame with the educational system...the parents of the children. My wife teaches 5th grade in a suburb township of Indianapolis. The demographic of her students is low income with most living in Sec 8 Apartments or mobile homes. She receives absolutely zero support from the parents of her students. She spends her afternoon after school is out by calling multiple parents to inform them that their childeren are not doing (turning-in) their homework. The usual response from the parents is somewhere between indifference and annoyance. They couldn't care less whether or not their children learn anything. The same goes for discipline. My wife has been yelled at, pushed, and had items thrown at her by students but the only response from the parents is that she is picking on their child..oh, really. Its next to impossible for a teacher to keep a child "engaged" in education when there is no importance put on education in the household along with the fact that most teachers spend the large part of their day discipling (which should be done at home)rather than teaching. I am the ultimate pessimist and my wife is the total optimist. Up to this year, she really thought she could reach (save ) every child. Last month she came home and broke down in tears because she knew she was never going to be able reach these students in her classroom.
Anna,
Most of the complaints I hear about our local(corrupt) Dallas Independent School District is that we have one administrator for every 2 teachers. Good and caring teachers feel that they can make real change in the classroom on an individual basis. But most of my teacher friends say the administrators are overpaid and under used as far as actual teaching goes. I'm assuming that the reason you want to become an adminsitrator is to make changes in ciriculum, teaching methods, etc. But in reality do these administrators really have that much impact?? I'd think if they did we wouldn't have the problems we currently have. especially at that 1:2 ratio. Educate me.
[humorous aside]How do I reach these keeds?![/b][/humorous aside]
I can certainly sympathize with your wife's situation. But I work with those same troubled kids whose parents supposedly or even accurately don't do what they need to be doing at home...and guess what? Present to them a curriculum that they see value in and do it in a manner that is respectful to the kids on THEIR LEVEL...and watch those career bad kids get right to work. Point being, there is ALWAYS a way. Possibly, your wife just hasn't figured out her way yet. Again, I know how frustrating it can be, and where she is now, it's probably going to take additional support from her admins and/or further training/consultations/etc. But the fact of the matter is that NO kid is impossible to teach effectively. And any adult who says so needs to reevaluate.
Thats exactly what I was thinking.... that was one of the funniest south parks ever.....
Harvey,
I both respect what you do and believe you make an impact but I must ask this question...... do you have the same success teaching things like math and science as you do music?? I'm going to assume that getting kids excited about the prospect of performing and recording music is a lot easier than getting them excited about some of the very basic skills that they will need to be successful in life beyond music?
We teach music as a vocational thing...all leading to ways that the kids could make money off of their musical endeavors now, let alone when they graduate years down the line. Of course on one hand math and science don't offer the easy entry point to teaching that music does, but on another concepts of math and science can be presented in a billion different ways that could instantly make the kids realize the worth of the subject matter to their own lives. Making education practical is what is all about nowadays.
Teachers do in fact need to convince their students why they need to learn each and every thing they are trying to teach. And if a teacher can't do that convincing convincingly, then they have failed at an important and integral facet of their jobs.
I disagree with this. I've read/seen/tried a few different math learning "tricks" and have had discussions with others in this field who are way against any kind of silly methods. Most have explained that a no nonsense approach (an "old school" method) is what needs to be done. Math/Science needs to be practiced and studied to really be understood. Takes a lot of hard work IMO.
I think is a good point. Convincing students of the importance of math/science is a good place to start but a lot of this shit should start at home.
And hold up, you disagree with the idea of making math and science practical? Noone's talking silly tricks here. You can teach compounding interest by bringing in a bag of Skittles and illustrating how you get more on top of more candy as the interest accrues. Real simple shit like that is all I'm talking about here. Give them a reason to want to learn...either by showing how the lesson relates to their life and/or through positive reinforcements. All of this arcane you're going to learn my old school way out of duty shit is long gone as a viable method in most schools today. Cool if some teachers can pull it off, but every classroom is different.
Okay, I call bullshit. Parents have to be involved or the rest is fairly pointless. My wife can't go to every child's house every night and make sure they do their homework or study for their test. The parents need to have some clue and say hey.."did you have homework tonight?...can I check it?" or simply go thru their child's backpack and see whats going on. This fairly quaint idea that if you are creative enough as a teacher that you can reach any student sounds like it came from an afterschool special or ,worse, a hollywood movie. I always enjoy the week report cards go home and the parents call my wife because they had no idea that little Bobby was failing 4 subjects...they must have forgotten about the 3 notes, 4 voice mails, and 5 emails that my wife sent them concerning Bobby's progress..it must have slipped their mind..dumbasses. Lastly, how can my wife not worry about what's happening at home if it directly affects her? The least of which is kids staying up to midnight on school nights and then fall asleep in class to the extreme of dad and brother selling drugs out the house..that my affect the child in class. Right now its just talk, but the governor wants to start holding parents more responsible..I say charge them with neglect.
A teacher has no control over what goes on at home for a student. So teachers in situations where they know parents aren't up on their jobs should act accordingly...not just say it's the parents' fault and give up. Seriously, you're dismissing improved and more refined teaching methods the teacher does have under her control for state-sponsored retribution against parents???
In some classrooms, homework just isn't going to get done. So does a teacher of such a classroom just beat their head on the wall insisting on something that is basically impossible under their power. Or do teachers adjust their curriculum and their approach to fit the situation?
Some parents don't care if their kids flunk out of school. So does the teacher of said children just send note after note home even after knowing it won't make a difference? Or does the teacher find a way to make that difference themself?
The educational climate has changed. And teachers need to quit sticking with their outmoded models that clearly don't work in order to find new ones that will actually work.
Sadly, I don't think this is possible on a large scale. How much time does the average student spend with each teacher in a week vs. time spent at home/outside of school? I don't know how much even the best intentions/methods of any teacher can do to counteract the worst home situations. These problems and their solutions are bigger than the educational system.
I do seriously admire and respect you for making the contribution you do for the kids in your area, Harvey.
well, that ratio sounds super high, at the district office we have administrators such as deputy superintendents, program managers etc, but many working there are teachers and support staff. My school is a small school, one of six on a campus, we have one administrator and about twenty teachers. Comprehensive high schools have one principal, three or so vice principals and about 80-100 teachers.
I know I make change in the classroom, but I am constantly running into ridiculous roadblocks and obstacles and that's why I want to be in a leadership position. It will take a while to get where I can do big things, but that's my plan.
Thank you, it's my pleasure to do the work.
But yeah, times have changed. Even good parents often wonder why kids get homework to do when they already spend 7-9 hours in school each day already. So many single parents nowadays too with jobs of their own, there really isn't that much time, let alone energy left to do much pitching in on their kids' schoolwork. But again, this is stuff we all already know. The question is what is going to be done about it. And I will contend all day that teachers are in the best position to be figuring that out.
Sounds like you're in a much better situation than what we have here in Dallas....I think 2 of our last 4 District heads is in jail.