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The big Three

nzshadownzshadow 5,518 Posts
edited December 2008 in Strut Central
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  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    $73.00 an hour to work on the GM assembly line.......b, 21b, 21b, 21Recently my daughter's '08 VW Rabbit was broken into and the thief smashed the passenger side window....she brought it to the dealership and they charged her $380.00 to replace the window......when she lowered the repaired window there was a grinding sound coming from inside the door panel......the VW service guy tells her..."That's just broken glass, it will eventually stop"....she asks why they didn't remove the broken glass and he tells her..... "We would have to remove the whole door panel and that would cost you another $400.00".b, 21b, 21Finding an independent honest mechanic is one of the keys to life.
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    By Jan, there may not be a Big Three left. b, 21b, 21As I suggested in the original thread about the bailout, I think there's no easy, comfortable route here one way or another. I have no big love for American car makers but I also don't see why the F*ck we set aside $700M for a bunch of bankers but we can't approve 2% of that figure to help out one of the biggest employers of blue collar Americans. I generally buy the idea that the reason with Southern Republicans voted against the bill was b/c they want to bust the unions and have Northern auto factories offer the same kind of limited contracts that Southern factories do.
  • DJ_EnkiDJ_Enki 6,473 Posts
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    b, 21I generally buy the idea that the reason with Southern Republicans voted against the bill was b/c they want to bust the unions and have Northern auto factories offer the same kind of limited contracts that Southern factories do.
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    b, 21
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    font class="post"1b, 21b, 21This is definitely a huge part of it--it was even detailed in some GOP strategy memo or something like that. They said this was their chance to do some union-busting. Plus, UAW workers don't vote GOP, so the GOP is saying "F*ck 'em."
  • Mad Drama TeacherMad Drama Teacher 1,985 Posts
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    b, 21I generally buy the idea that the reason with Southern Republicans voted against the bill was b/c they want to bust the unions and have Northern auto factories offer the same kind of limited contracts that Southern factories do.
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    b, 21
    b, 21This is definitely a huge part of it--it was even detailed in some GOP strategy memo or something like that. They said this was their chance to do some union-busting. Plus, UAW workers don't vote GOP, so the GOP is saying "F*ck 'em."
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    font class="post"1b, 21b, 21F*ck it. Shit can the entire American auto industry and start from scratch. If they can't compete, why should they exist?
  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
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    b, 21I generally buy the idea that the reason with Southern Republicans voted against the bill was b/c they want to bust the unions and have Northern auto factories offer the same kind of limited contracts that Southern factories do.
    b, 21
    b, 21
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    b, 21
    b, 21This is definitely a huge part of it--it was even detailed in some GOP strategy memo or something like that. They said this was their chance to do some union-busting. Plus, UAW workers don't vote GOP, so the GOP is saying "F*ck 'em."
    b, 21
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    b, 21F*ck it. Shit can the entire American auto industry and start from scratch. If they can't compete, why should they exist?
    b, 21
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    font class="post"1b, 21b, 21After that we can attack the Teacher's Union(s) and get rid of all the useless "Administrators" and pay the actual teachers a decent wage.
  • rootlesscosmorootlesscosmo 12,848 Posts
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    b, 21Finding an independent honest mechanic is one of the keys to life.
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  • canonicalcanonical 2,100 Posts
    They should have canned the Auto industry and spent the $25B on severance packages for the workers who had no fault in the garbage administration of that industry.
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
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    b, 21They should have canned the Auto industry and spent the $25B on severance packages for the workers who had no fault in the garbage administration of that industry.
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    font class="post"1b, 21b, 21 img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/green30sv.gif" alt="" 21b, 21b, 21And Rock - check your numbers. That $73/hour business isn't exactly a wage.
  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
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    h, 21
    b, 21They should have canned the Auto industry and spent the $25B on severance packages for the workers who had no fault in the garbage administration of that industry.
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    b, 21And Rock - check your numbers. That $73/hour business isn't exactly a wage.
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    font class="post"1b, 21b, 21The $73.00 an hour was used by the UAW in their contract negotiations...it includes benefits....compared to Toyota non-union plants here in the U.S. who come in at $48.00 in an apples to apples comparison.....Jeep pays even less.b, 21b, 21Like you, I understand the stance of those Southern Republicans who want the UAW busted so the car companies can stay in business and be competitive. b, 21b, 21Whether they operate in the south or the north is unimportant.b, 21b, 21I can envision the day when people say "Who else besides illegal immigrants are gonna take these lousy $25.00 an hour jobs".
  • the3rdstreamthe3rdstream 1,980 Posts
    b, 21nzshadow, do you even live in the united states?
  • canonicalcanonical 2,100 Posts
    Rock - it's unfair to amalgamate "benefits" into wages when touting statistics. It paints a negative image and I think we all agree that most full-time, career-based employers should be offering their workers benefit packages.
  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
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    b, 21Rock - it's unfair to amalgamate "benefits" into wages when touting statistics. It paints a negative image and I think we all agree that most full-time, career-based employers should be offering their workers benefit packages.
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    font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Tell that to the UAW....it's their figure.b, 21b, 21But the comparison I made above was apples to apples including benefits.b, 21b, 21If you have a better comparison between union and non-union wages please post it up.
  • canonicalcanonical 2,100 Posts
    I don't have figures. I'm just over-reacting to the anti-union sentiment that is rampant in the US.b, 21b, 21For the most part unions in the united states (and Canada) are corrupt and bankrupt. However, getting rid of them is not the solution. They stand for positive and necessary ideals. Providing structure and resources for unfair treatment and removal of workers and a forum to express grievances and security. Without unions we would not have: minimum wage, benefits, 5-day 40-hour work-week (which is slowly deteriorating), or any level of working rights.b, 21b, 21To me the solution is to lower the wages of union leadership and organizers to the average salary of the workers they represent while at the same time introducing wholesale democracy into those organizations so that they actually represent the interests of the workers and not political back-benchers and beaurocrats.b, 21b, 21In terms of the auto industry, those unions have long showed themselves to be in the pockets of centrist democrats (and liberals here in Canada) whose only interest is in saving their career and not affecting any change for their membership. With that in mind, I wouldn't trust a f*cking thing those crooks said. They are worse than the political ideals of republicans because they tarnish the image of something quintessentially important to our society; the protection of our working rights.
  • BurnsBurns 2,227 Posts
    Someone please quote me..but didn't Toyota sell just as many units as GM last year?b, 21b, 21I wish/think the government should grant everyone a $15,000 voucher toward a purchase of non-SUV hybrid/dual fuel car.
  • canonicalcanonical 2,100 Posts
    In sum: getting rid of the unions is not going to save the auto industry. They're doing the same thing that the government in Canada is doing to the health-care industry.b, 21b, 21"Look, it's crumbling! It's because we're paying our workers too much! Yeah, that'll save us! Down with unions!"b, 21b, 21Really, the solution is to make better cars so people want to buy them.
  • Mad Drama TeacherMad Drama Teacher 1,985 Posts
    You can't be serious...
  • Lucious_FoxLucious_Fox 2,479 Posts
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    b, 21Really, the solution is to make better cars so people want to buy them.
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  • HairyBelafonteHairyBelafonte 1,202 Posts
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    h, 21
    b, 21Someone please quote me..but didn't Toyota sell just as many units as GM last year?
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    b, 21I wish/think the government should grant everyone a $15,000 voucher toward a purchase of non-SUV hybrid/dual fuel car.
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    font class="post"1b, 21b, 21b, 21Umm... img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/NO.gif" alt="" 21b, 21b, 21b, 21How about better public transit, pedestrian friendly city planning and more bicycle lanes to and from neighborhoods to commercial areas?
  • DrWuDrWu 4,021 Posts
    A large part of Toyota's advantage comes from their very different (and much more efficient) style of car making they have been perfecting for 50 years. They use a just in time inventory system that encourages learning from mistakes and keeping costs extremely low. The big 3 are bloated dinosaurs that waste huge amounts of money tracking parts to make each car way too far in advance. Toyota has long made more profit than all of the big three combined because of this advantage. This is all common knowledge within the industry and standard case study stuff in the academic world. You will not hear about this because it would require massive restructuring of the management class (and the factories) as opposed to simply busting the unions. BTW unions have shown little interest in pushing the companies to grow up either. The money is just too good. We will not solve this problem by driving down wages. Toyota is simply too good a company for that.b, 21b, 21 img src="http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515GVDF552L._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg"1
  • ignastyignasty 163 Posts
    Didn't Iacocca introduce JIT inventory at Chrysler when he was there?
  • DrWuDrWu 4,021 Posts
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    b, 21Didn't Iacocca introduce JIT inventory at Chrysler when he was there?
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    font class="post"1b, 21b, 21No, at least not at the level that Toyota does it. They simply are totally different companies. One makes money, the others do not. Read Johnson's book if you really want to know more.
  • MassiveMassive 194 Posts
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    b, 21
    b, 21
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    b, 21How about better public transit, pedestrian friendly city planning and more bicycle lanes to and from neighborhoods to commercial areas?
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  • ignastyignasty 163 Posts
    I'm not trying to argue with you, obviously Toyota is much more competitive than the Big 3, but Iacocca does talk about introducing JIT at Chrysler on page 197 of his autobiography. Couldn't quote it here, but I think it was in 1979? I'm just trying to point out this isn't a revolutionary concept and doesn't fully explain why Toyota is profitable and Chrysler isn't.
  • Ex-BoyfriendEx-Boyfriend 795 Posts
    'The big three' dont have so much trouble in selling cars as they do at producing them efficiently. GM had one of their best years ever for total sales last year and still made a loss of near enough 40 billion.b, 21b, 21They're just shit companies and have been for years. If they were just three basically sound companies who were being dragged down by the general downturn id still oppose the bailout but I would at least have some sympathy for it. The writing has been on the wall for these dudes a long time.
  • DrBorisQDrBorisQ 298 Posts
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    h, 21
    b, 21They should have canned the Auto industry and spent the $25B on severance packages for the workers who had no fault in the garbage administration of that industry.
    b, 21
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    b, 21And Rock - check your numbers. That $73/hour business isn't exactly a wage.
    b, 21
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    b, 21The $73.00 an hour was used by the UAW in their contract negotiations...it includes benefits....compared to Toyota non-union plants here in the U.S. who come in at $48.00 in an apples to apples comparison.....Jeep pays even less.
    b, 21
    b, 21Like you, I understand the stance of those Southern Republicans who want the UAW busted so the car companies can stay in business and be competitive.
    b, 21
    b, 21Whether they operate in the south or the north is unimportant.
    b, 21
    b, 21I can envision the day when people say "Who else besides illegal immigrants are gonna take these lousy $25.00 an hour jobs".
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    font class="post"1b, 21b, 21b, 21It includes benefits and also the burden of carrying retirees.b, 21b, 21img src="http://img.iht.com/images/2008/12/10/10gleonhardtcolumn600.gif"1
  • Young_PhonicsYoung_Phonics 8,039 Posts
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    h, 21
    b, 21Someone please quote me..but didn't Toyota sell just as many units as GM last year?
    b, 21
    b, 21I wish/think the government should grant everyone a $15,000 voucher toward a purchase of non-SUV hybrid/dual fuel car.
    b, 21
    b, 21
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    b, 21Umm...
    img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/NO.gif" alt="" 21
    b, 21
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    b, 21How about better public transit, pedestrian friendly city planning and more bicycle lanes to and from neighborhoods to commercial areas?
    b, 21
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    font class="post"1b, 21b, 21^^^^b, 21b, 21 hippy ideology ! Ironic though because it sounds like you wood grain grippin' in a b, 21b, 21b, 21 img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/waaambulance.gif" alt="" 21
  • akoako https://soundcloud.com/a-ko 3,413 Posts
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    b, 21Really, the solution is to make better cars so people want to buy them.
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    font class="post"1b, 21b, 21but super-conservative, poorly designed, low-quality crap is what makes america america!b, 21b, 21honestly, if the "big three" went down the tubes id say good riddance. american cars are total shit for the most part. the whole thing is based mostly on greed. my dad encountered somebody who worked for GM in the mid 70s. they saw a 4 year old chevy that had lots of rust starting on the lower half in the car. the guy talked about how it was "beautiful!" and told my dad how the cars were designed to rust out after only a few years so you'd go and buy another GM car to replace it (although anybody who would keep buying from them after that would be a damn fool)b, 21b, 21sure, GM engines will run forever with the right treatment, but its not mechanical issues that make american cars garbage. its everything else. i saw a 2002-or-so pontiac the other day with RUST HOLES through the entire lower body. b, 21b, 21consider the resale value of any american car too. pretty much nothing. i had a 1995 VW passat with nearly 300,000 miles on it. somebody hit it, totaled it, and the insurance company still gave me $2900 for the car. i cant imagine a, say, 1995 for taurus with 300,000 miles getting the same cash. (or still existing at that point)b, 21b, 21i took part of the money, turned around and bought a totally rustless 1981 BMW 320i for $850. havent had a single problem with it yet. beautiful car.b, 21b, 21that fake ad is great. i might have to post it in another forum....haha
  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
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    b, 21They should have canned the Auto industry and spent the $25B on severance packages for the workers who had no fault in the garbage administration of that industry.
    b, 21
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    b, 21And Rock - check your numbers. That $73/hour business isn't exactly a wage.
    b, 21
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    b, 21The $73.00 an hour was used by the UAW in their contract negotiations...it includes benefits....compared to Toyota non-union plants here in the U.S. who come in at $48.00 in an apples to apples comparison.....Jeep pays even less.
    b, 21
    b, 21Like you, I understand the stance of those Southern Republicans who want the UAW busted so the car companies can stay in business and be competitive.
    b, 21
    b, 21Whether they operate in the south or the north is unimportant.
    b, 21
    b, 21I can envision the day when people say "Who else besides illegal immigrants are gonna take these lousy $25.00 an hour jobs".
    b, 21
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    b, 21It includes benefits and also the burden of carrying retirees.
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    font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Perspective: b, 21b, 21$20.00 an hour w/302,000 UAW members = $6,040,000 per hourb, 21 $48,320,000 per dayb, 21 $241,600,000 per weekb, 21 $12,563,200,000 per yearb, 21b, 21Twelve and a half billion per year for say the last 10 years.b, 21b, 21$120 BILLIONb, 21b, 21How much are they looking for in their "bail-out"??
  • Mad Drama TeacherMad Drama Teacher 1,985 Posts
    Looks like I made the wrong choice in going to college when I could be pulling in nearly 60K a year working in an auto plant.
  • DrWuDrWu 4,021 Posts
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    b, 21I'm not trying to argue with you, obviously Toyota is much more competitive than the Big 3, but Iacocca does talk about introducing JIT at Chrysler on page 197 of his autobiography. Couldn't quote it here, but I think it was in 1979? I'm just trying to point out this isn't a revolutionary concept and doesn't fully explain why Toyota is profitable and Chrysler isn't.
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    font class="post"1b, 21b, 21You need to read Johnson's book. You will be stunned at how totally different their manufacturing systems are. When Iacocca talks about JIT it has nothing to do with how Toyota does it. As Dolo points out, the big three sell cars they just can't make any money doing it because they are wasteful. The biggest area of waste is in the structure of inventory. The big three spend more money moving and storing parts than on the actual assembly of their cars. Toyota does not because the organize their inventory on their assembly line floors. They track inventory much more efficiently because of this, giving them giant savings. b, 21b, 21Toyota also extends its advantage by focusing on quality control. They are famous for their pull chord break system, where any worker can stop the line with a pull chord. Toyota uses this system to identify errors and then figure out how to eliminate them. The big three have tried to emulate the pull-chord system but simply don't have the patience and philosophical bent to make it work.b, 21b, 21The notion that the cars cost too much money too build because of union wages is a political ploy to bust unions. Unions need to change but not nearly as much as the companies themselves do.
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