I think that's worth considering from all sides - that hip-hop isn't nearly as apolitical as either detractors or boosters think it may be.
Oliver, there's no need to go into that. I think--hope--everyone that's party to the discussion understands that merely documenting everyday life or representing where you are from can be a political act (anybody that hasn't grasped that should fall back and listen to the adults talk).
We are not talking about conscious rap as that word is properly employed. We are talking about "conscious" rap--that which its proponents hold up as some sort of neglected ideal. And I know you know just who and what I am talking about.
suburban white kids are growing up yelling n*gga at eachother and thinking they are living the hip-hop life because their moms are driving bmw's and their fathers have rolexes.
This is a reality but it has less to do with hip hop and more to do with the suburban line of thought that poverty is something best ignored.
Well I am not talking about Immortal Technique or Jedi Mind Tricks I am talking about Lakim Shabazz and Public Enemy. Their era of political rap was strongly influenced by NOI and 5% ideology and its presence in the community. The stance was more explicitly political, and raps referenced fairly complex figures, theories, and ideas. That is no longer the case.
That doesn't signal the end of consciousness in rap though - there's still, as you mention, plenty of socially conscious material that does not wear its politics on its sleeve. Obviously the NOI and 5% do not have nearly as strong a presence in the Black community let alone the hip-hop landscape as they did 15-20 years ago, but that's not the rappers' faults.
suburban white kids are growing up yelling n*gga at eachother and thinking they are living the hip-hop life because their moms are driving bmw's and their fathers have rolexes.
This is a reality but it has less to do with hip hop and more to do with the suburban line of thought that poverty is something best ignored.
poor kids are putting more stock in hip hop fantasy land because the people who are perpetuating the stereotypes look just like them.
you sure about this ?
suburban white kids are growing up yelling n*gga at eachother and thinking they are living the hip-hop life because their moms are driving bmw's and their fathers have rolexes.
the youth is f*cked all around.
hip-hop imagery does an incredible amount of harm.
on who or what ?
don't be that guy who answers every argument by saying "is it though?". if you disagree, say why.
If this is your way of walking away from your comments then i'll let it rest...but it's not cool when people make silly statements without having a damn thing to back them up.....I chose not to say why i disagree because i thought i'd give you a chance to shed some light....but .......
suburban white kids are growing up yelling n*gga at eachother and thinking they are living the hip-hop life because their moms are driving bmw's and their fathers have rolexes.
This is a reality but it has less to do with hip hop and more to do with the suburban line of thought that poverty is something best ignored.
not when we are talking about kids- who generally play the eddie hascal role around their parents, and then switch identities when they walk out the front door. mtv and the internet are influential. is that so hard to believe?
Oliver, there's no need to go into that. I think--hope--everyone that's party to the discussion understands that merely documenting everyday life or representing where you are from can be a political act (anybody that hasn't grasped that should fall back and listen to the adults talk).
Yeah man, I'm not convinced that this is a universally understood point.
But yes, I agree with your point that torch bearers for "conscious rap" are talking about something very specific rather than broader in definition.
And I concede that "message rap" was the exception, not the rule, in terms of pop charts but my point was that there's a difference between something being "niche" vs. "an anomaly". I'm just splitting semantic hairs probably.
Well I am not talking about Immortal Technique or Jedi Mind Tricks I am talking about Lakim Shabazz and Public Enemy. Their era of political rap was strongly influenced by NOI and 5% ideology and its presence in the community. The stance was more explicitly political, and raps referenced fairly complex figures, theories, and ideas. That is no longer the case.
at the risk of offending any 5%ers in here, I'd say the NOI and 5% milieu also produced a lot of confused nonsense rap. See: killah priest et al.
If this is your way of walking away from your comments then i'll let it rest...but it's not cool when people make silly statements without having a damn thing to back them up.....I chose not to say why i disagree because i thought i'd give you a chance to shed some light....but .......
silly statements? this is a huge issue in the black community. the whole cosby/michael eric dyson debate is largely related to the issue of parent accountability for perpetuating hip hop imagery. why dont you shed some light on how you can think that the mainstream media directed at kids (in which hip hop imagery is predominate) can not effect how they act????
suburban white kids are growing up yelling n*gga at eachother and thinking they are living the hip-hop life because their moms are driving bmw's and their fathers have rolexes.
This is a reality but it has less to do with hip hop and more to do with the suburban line of thought that poverty is something best ignored.
not when we are talking about kids- who generally play the eddie hascal role around their parents, and then switch identities when they walk out the front door. mtv and the internet are influential. is that so hard to believe?
It's not but the data is, at best, mixed to support your point. This is one of those "glass half/empty/full" debates but the majority of ALL youth (regardless of gender or race) think that hip-hop is largely filled with negative images of Black men and women. So clearly, youth are aware of what's going on. On the other hand, the largest minority of youth who do NOT find things wrong with the image of Black men (in particular) in hip-hop happen to be Black men.
My friend argues that this finding (from the Black Youth Project, one of the few empirical studies that actually, y'know, asks youth what they think instead of making sweeping assumptions) suggests that, in the end, ANY visibility is better than invisibility. I agree with that idea to a certain extent though I also think it reflects the internalization of certain images and ideas.
Either way though, youth aren't as ignorant about what goes on around them as your point maybe suggest they are.
To me, the greater danger isn't that youth buy into it - it's that adults do - adults in power-making positions around urban planning, education, employment, housing who interpret cultural imagination as sociological evidence and let this guide their policy decisions.
If this is your way of walking away from your comments then i'll let it rest...but it's not cool when people make silly statements without having a damn thing to back them up.....I chose not to say why i disagree because i thought i'd give you a chance to shed some light....but .......
silly statements? this is a huge issue in the black community. the whole cosby/michael eric dyson debate is largely related to the issue of parent accountability for perpetuating hip hop imagery. why dont you shed some light on how you can think that the mainstream media directed at kids (in which hip hop imagery is predominate) can not effect how they act????
Whew--good thing you straightened my man Ed out on "the Black community"!
silly statements? this is a huge issue in the black community. the whole cosby/michael eric dyson debate is largely related to the issue of parent accountability for perpetuating hip hop imagery. why dont you shed some light on how you can think that the mainstream media directed at kids (in which hip hop imagery is predominate) can not effect how they act????
I don't know that much about the black community so i really can't speak on it .
The difference is of course that the core hip-hop community embraced message rap whereas novelty rap was always rejected.
I agree with the comment about novelty rap being maligned, but I can't recall for the life of me dudes getting extremely juiced up solely because a new rap record had a "positive message." The reason that Public Enemy is revered is primarily because they had absolutely incredible production, the lyrics and message seemed secondary. Basically they built their concept around the already devastating beats. Witness the Spectrum City 12-inch to get an idea about what PE was like before the concept.
Like I said, "message rap" (sans PE and a few anomalies) is the domain of schoolteachers, gripping aldermen and members of the Baptist clergy.
Speaking of PE and Chuck D, if his comment about rap being "the Black CNN" is taken to heart, then the genre's current reporters are deeply embedded and have their finger on the very pulse of what's really happening on the streets.
If this is your way of walking away from your comments then i'll let it rest...but it's not cool when people make silly statements without having a damn thing to back them up.....I chose not to say why i disagree because i thought i'd give you a chance to shed some light....but .......
silly statements? this is a huge issue in the black community. the whole cosby/michael eric dyson debate is largely related to the issue of parent accountability for perpetuating hip hop imagery. why dont you shed some light on how you can think that the mainstream media directed at kids (in which hip hop imagery is predominate) can not effect how they act????
Dude, you do realize you are conversing with an actual black person, don't you? And you, as someone who recently stated that black men are statistically more likely to be gay homosexuals, should really just fall back (and/or fall back).
And to echo faux's post from the first page, I feel like there is WAY more music available now than there ever has been. If you don't like "Clear Channel crap," you really don't have to listen to it. Spend a few minutes online and you can find plenty of stuff you probably will like.
And I am always talking about how lots of current rap is conscious lyrically, even if not's the nag champa variety of consciousness, so I'm glad to see that mentioned here, too.
silly statements? this is a huge issue in the black community. the whole cosby/michael eric dyson debate is largely related to the issue of parent accountability for perpetuating hip hop imagery. why dont you shed some light on how you can think that the mainstream media directed at kids (in which hip hop imagery is predominate) can not effect how they act????
I don't know that much about the black community so i really can't speak on it .
Personally, I'd be a hell of a lot more concerned about the $15 billion spent on advertising to kids per year than on the content of hip-hop lyrics. Not that the latter ISN'T important but on the grand scheme of shit that's trying to exploit or lead kids astray, the rap industry is practically a flea on the back of far bigger corporations trying to get your kids to eat McDonalds, buy Disney and drink Coke (not to mention smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol).
And I concede that "message rap" was the exception, not the rule, in terms of pop charts but my point was that there's a difference between something being "niche" vs. "an anomaly". I'm just splitting semantic hairs probably.
To be clear, I'm not arguing that it has been an anomaly at all points in rap's history--only that that was the case initially. There were quite a few message raps in the wake of the success of "The Message," and then--as JP pointed out--there was a later period where one of the dominant strains of content/aesthetic was informed by afrocentrism and the NGE.
I don't see how, a year after "Ridin Dirty" and "Thats Life" and "Georgia Bush" folks are still getting all mad like the last time rappers cared about shit was when Bush I was in office.
silly statements? this is a huge issue in the black community. the whole cosby/michael eric dyson debate is largely related to the issue of parent accountability for perpetuating hip hop imagery. why dont you shed some light on how you can think that the mainstream media directed at kids (in which hip hop imagery is predominate) can not effect how they act????
I don't know that much about the black community so i really can't speak on it .
Personally, I'd be a hell of a lot more concerned about the $15 billion spent on advertising to kids per year than on the content of hip-hop lyrics. Not that the latter ISN'T important but on the grand scheme of shit that's trying to exploit or lead kids astray, the rap industry is practically a flea on the back of far bigger corporations trying to get your kids to eat McDonalds, buy Disney and drink Coke (not to mention smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol).
Dude, rock music has been with us since what? The 1950s? IT'S STILL POPULAR WITH YOUTH even if it no longer has the monopoly on the genre.
The rock music of today is not anything like the "Rock" music of the 50s.
In almost all cases, it's the youth who have born all forms of popular music for the past 80 years. When you hear someone say "Hip Hop is youth music", it's partly a bullshit statement. It's like saying today that "Rock is youth music". So, if Rock or Punk or Disco or House or so on & so on all started as youth music, how can you claim hip hop is? Which isn't youth music?
In 30 years you won't hear anyone say hip hop is youth music. What you'll hear is that a sub-genre of hip hop music to which a large section of young people will make popular is youngin's music and that will last until the next thing comes along. Anyone who thinks that the youth will be interested in hip hop forever and keep it popular are, I'm sorry. But living in their own private mind garden.
Dude, you do realize you are conversing with an actual black person, don't you?
Dude, an actual black man??? so he must be the supreme authority on every issue that relates to the black community.
if you really believe that the negative stereotypes being perpuated by hip hop imagery is not effecting black and white youths then you havent spent much time around kids. but lemme guess, you have kids, right??? i'll fall back.
Just because someone doesn't like a majority of the music on the radio these days has nothing to do with them being old or not wanting to have fun, it may be that possibly the music in the particular genre is reaching a low point. Alot of the defenders seem ready to go down with the ship but honestly outside a very FEW examples in 2006 most of the releases were either singles only or straight up trash.
I find it funny that alot of people that are severely disconnected from the so called streets like to TRY and dictate what is popular or hitting. Most of the shit thats out right now as far as rap is concerned is not REALLY hitting (see the ayola thread). The Money is leaving hip-hop right now as it no longer has the attention of alot of the youth that it used to have. This is reflected in not only album sales but in URBAN radio stations not being able to fill their adspace and making the switch to Rhythmic. I find it amazing that so many people ahve such a hard time understanding that hip-hop (and media in general) is heading towards a low point as far as money earned. This is going to translate into a good thing though because right now there is really TOO much product. The market is over-saturated with artists or people that think their artists (this is not just amajor label issue) and there is a severe lack of fans in the genre.
Not only are alot of Majors scaling back or (like sony did) closing Urban depts. but you have alot of indie labels facing the same situation. what does this say for the genre overall? Its not dead, but getting ready for a purge of artists and to hit a low point. Like someone noted, its all cyclical and its going to hit a low point as far as sales.
Dude, rock music has been with us since what? The 1950s? IT'S STILL POPULAR WITH YOUTH even if it no longer has the monopoly on the genre.
The rock music of today is not anything like the "Rock" music of the 50s.
In almost all cases, it's the youth who have born all forms of popular music for the past 80 years. When you hear someone say "Hip Hop is youth music", it's partly a bullshit statement. It's like saying today that "Rock is youth music". So, if Rock or Punk or Disco or House or so on & so on all started as youth music, how can you claim hip hop is? Which isn't youth music?
In 30 years you won't hear anyone say hip hop is youth music. What you'll hear is that a sub-genre of hip hop music to which a large section of young people will make popular is youngin's music and that will last until the next thing comes along. Anyone who thinks that the youth will be interested in hip hop forever and keep it popular are, I'm sorry. But living in their own private mind garden.
I'm totally confused as to what you're saying.
I have no idea if youth will be interested in "hip hop forever." I mean, forever is a really fucking long time so yeah, I guess you'd probably be right. Then again, the current saturation and diversity of media available to youth has never been greater than this moment and as a consequence, the popularity of "niche" genres (which hip-hop could be said to be in a sense) could sustain itself longer than when there were more finite limits put on what had access to a consumer market.
Regardless, rock music's popularity is still at least partially based in the fact that teenagers like it. Whether rock music still sounds the same as when Chuck and Little Richard were doing it is kind of besides the point; what qualifies as "rock music" in terms of BOTH aesthetics and market categories is still tremendously popular amongst young people.
The difference is of course that the core hip-hop community embraced message rap whereas novelty rap was always rejected.
I agree with the comment about novelty rap being maligned, but I can't recall for the life of me dudes getting extremely juiced up solely because a new rap record had a "positive message." The reason that Public Enemy is revered is primarily because they had absolutely incredible production, the lyrics and message seemed secondary. Basically they built their concept around the already devastating beats. Witness the Spectrum City 12-inch to get an idea about what PE was like before the concept.
Agreed on PE - but I meant that "message rap" fit the trends within hip-hop, the afrocentric fashion and light dabbling in 5% or Islamic ideology. Some of that stuff was average or below lyrically and production-wise but got some degree of props because it fit in with the trends.
if you really believe that the negative stereotypes being perpuated by hip hop imagery is not effecting black and white youths then you havent spent much time around kids.
White people claiming to know what's really effecting the black community (especially black children) is a bigger problem. I live with a few black kids so i think i'm right about this one............maybe
I'm not claiming it as gospel but at least someone's doing actual research rather than shooting from the intellectual hip about what or what isn't going on in the minds of American youth.
Agreed on PE - but I meant that "message rap" fit the trends within hip-hop, the afrocentric fashion and light dabbling in 5% or Islamic ideology. Some of that stuff was average or below lyrically and production-wise but got some degree of props because it fit in with the trends.
Gotcha. I jammed X-Clan considerably when it came out because the beats were hot. They were talking about "polar bears," but fuck it the tracks were good. I got grief from both ends of the melanin spectrum, but again, fuck it, it's music.
I turned Professor Griff onto UNIQUE & DASHAN for chrissakes!
Comments
50 Cent. "Get Rich Or Die Trying". That's a heavy message. A call to arms.
Oliver, there's no need to go into that. I think--hope--everyone that's party to the discussion understands that merely documenting everyday life or representing where you are from can be a political act (anybody that hasn't grasped that should fall back and listen to the adults talk).
We are not talking about conscious rap as that word is properly employed. We are talking about "conscious" rap--that which its proponents hold up as some sort of neglected ideal. And I know you know just who and what I am talking about.
This is a reality but it has less to do with hip hop and more to do with the suburban line of thought that poverty is something best ignored.
Word - I mean, what is "I Got It 4 Cheap" really about? It's about keeping your overhead costs low to maximize profits.
That doesn't signal the end of consciousness in rap though - there's still, as you mention, plenty of socially conscious material that does not wear its politics on its sleeve. Obviously the NOI and 5% do not have nearly as strong a presence in the Black community let alone the hip-hop landscape as they did 15-20 years ago, but that's not the rappers' faults.
CAR WARS!
If this is your way of walking away from your comments then i'll let it rest...but it's not cool when people make silly statements without having a damn thing to back them up.....I chose not to say why i disagree because i thought i'd give you a chance to shed some light....but .......
not when we are talking about kids- who generally play the eddie hascal role around their parents, and then switch identities when they walk out the front door. mtv and the internet are influential. is that so hard to believe?
Yeah man, I'm not convinced that this is a universally understood point.
But yes, I agree with your point that torch bearers for "conscious rap" are talking about something very specific rather than broader in definition.
And I concede that "message rap" was the exception, not the rule, in terms of pop charts but my point was that there's a difference between something being "niche" vs. "an anomaly". I'm just splitting semantic hairs probably.
at the risk of offending any 5%ers in here, I'd say the NOI and 5% milieu also produced a lot of confused nonsense rap. See: killah priest et al.
silly statements? this is a huge issue in the black community. the whole cosby/michael eric dyson debate is largely related to the issue of parent accountability for perpetuating hip hop imagery. why dont you shed some light on how you can think that the mainstream media directed at kids (in which hip hop imagery is predominate) can not effect how they act????
It's not but the data is, at best, mixed to support your point. This is one of those "glass half/empty/full" debates but the majority of ALL youth (regardless of gender or race) think that hip-hop is largely filled with negative images of Black men and women. So clearly, youth are aware of what's going on. On the other hand, the largest minority of youth who do NOT find things wrong with the image of Black men (in particular) in hip-hop happen to be Black men.
My friend argues that this finding (from the Black Youth Project, one of the few empirical studies that actually, y'know, asks youth what they think instead of making sweeping assumptions) suggests that, in the end, ANY visibility is better than invisibility. I agree with that idea to a certain extent though I also think it reflects the internalization of certain images and ideas.
Either way though, youth aren't as ignorant about what goes on around them as your point maybe suggest they are.
To me, the greater danger isn't that youth buy into it - it's that adults do - adults in power-making positions around urban planning, education, employment, housing who interpret cultural imagination as sociological evidence and let this guide their policy decisions.
Whew--good thing you straightened my man Ed out on "the Black community"!
I don't know that much about the black community so i really can't speak on it .
I agree with the comment about novelty rap being maligned, but I can't recall for the life of me dudes getting extremely juiced up solely because a new rap record had a "positive message."
The reason that Public Enemy is revered is primarily because they had absolutely incredible production, the lyrics and message seemed secondary.
Basically they built their concept around the already devastating beats.
Witness the Spectrum City 12-inch to get an idea about what PE was like before the concept.
Like I said, "message rap" (sans PE and a few anomalies) is the domain of schoolteachers, gripping aldermen and members of the Baptist clergy.
Speaking of PE and Chuck D, if his comment about rap being "the Black CNN" is taken to heart, then the genre's current reporters are deeply embedded and have their finger on the very pulse of what's really happening on the streets.
Nature vs. Nurture?
I won't go there.
Dude, you do realize you are conversing with an actual black person, don't you? And you, as someone who recently stated that black men are statistically more likely to be gay homosexuals, should really just fall back (and/or fall back).
And to echo faux's post from the first page, I feel like there is WAY more music available now than there ever has been. If you don't like "Clear Channel crap," you really don't have to listen to it. Spend a few minutes online and you can find plenty of stuff you probably will like.
And I am always talking about how lots of current rap is conscious lyrically, even if not's the nag champa variety of consciousness, so I'm glad to see that mentioned here, too.
Personally, I'd be a hell of a lot more concerned about the $15 billion spent on advertising to kids per year than on the content of hip-hop lyrics. Not that the latter ISN'T important but on the grand scheme of shit that's trying to exploit or lead kids astray, the rap industry is practically a flea on the back of far bigger corporations trying to get your kids to eat McDonalds, buy Disney and drink Coke (not to mention smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol).
To be clear, I'm not arguing that it has been an anomaly at all points in rap's history--only that that was the case initially. There were quite a few message raps in the wake of the success of "The Message," and then--as JP pointed out--there was a later period where one of the dominant strains of content/aesthetic was informed by afrocentrism and the NGE.
The rock music of today is not anything like the "Rock" music of the 50s.
In almost all cases, it's the youth who have born all forms of popular music for the past 80 years. When you hear someone say "Hip Hop is youth music", it's partly a bullshit statement. It's like saying today that "Rock is youth music". So, if Rock or Punk or Disco or House or so on & so on all started as youth music, how can you claim hip hop is? Which isn't youth music?
In 30 years you won't hear anyone say hip hop is youth music. What you'll hear is that a sub-genre of hip hop music to which a large section of young people will make popular is youngin's music and that will last until the next thing comes along. Anyone who thinks that the youth will be interested in hip hop forever and keep it popular are, I'm sorry. But living in their own private mind garden.
Dude, an actual black man??? so he must be the supreme authority on every issue that relates to the black community.
if you really believe that the negative stereotypes being perpuated by hip hop imagery is not effecting black and white youths then you havent spent much time around kids. but lemme guess, you have kids, right??? i'll fall back.
I find it funny that alot of people that are severely disconnected from the so called streets like to TRY and dictate what is popular or hitting. Most of the shit thats out right now as far as rap is concerned is not REALLY hitting (see the ayola thread). The Money is leaving hip-hop right now as it no longer has the attention of alot of the youth that it used to have. This is reflected in not only album sales but in URBAN radio stations not being able to fill their adspace and making the switch to Rhythmic. I find it amazing that so many people ahve such a hard time understanding that hip-hop (and media in general) is heading towards a low point as far as money earned. This is going to translate into a good thing though because right now there is really TOO much product. The market is over-saturated with artists or people that think their artists (this is not just amajor label issue) and there is a severe lack of fans in the genre.
Not only are alot of Majors scaling back or (like sony did) closing Urban depts. but you have alot of indie labels facing the same situation. what does this say for the genre overall? Its not dead, but getting ready for a purge of artists and to hit a low point. Like someone noted, its all cyclical and its going to hit a low point as far as sales.
I'm totally confused as to what you're saying.
I have no idea if youth will be interested in "hip hop forever." I mean, forever is a really fucking long time so yeah, I guess you'd probably be right. Then again, the current saturation and diversity of media available to youth has never been greater than this moment and as a consequence, the popularity of "niche" genres (which hip-hop could be said to be in a sense) could sustain itself longer than when there were more finite limits put on what had access to a consumer market.
Regardless, rock music's popularity is still at least partially based in the fact that teenagers like it. Whether rock music still sounds the same as when Chuck and Little Richard were doing it is kind of besides the point; what qualifies as "rock music" in terms of BOTH aesthetics and market categories is still tremendously popular amongst young people.
Agreed on PE - but I meant that "message rap" fit the trends within hip-hop, the afrocentric fashion and light dabbling in 5% or Islamic ideology. Some of that stuff was average or below lyrically and production-wise but got some degree of props because it fit in with the trends.
White people claiming to know what's really effecting the black community (especially black children) is a bigger problem. I live with a few black kids so i think i'm right about this one............maybe
http://blackyouthproject.uchicago.edu/
I'm not claiming it as gospel but at least someone's doing actual research rather than shooting from the intellectual hip about what or what isn't going on in the minds of American youth.
Gotcha.
I jammed X-Clan considerably when it came out because the beats were hot.
They were talking about "polar bears," but fuck it the tracks were good.
I got grief from both ends of the melanin spectrum, but again, fuck it, it's music.
I turned Professor Griff onto UNIQUE & DASHAN for chrissakes!