NBA 2007/Second Half/Do The Math

1353638404154

  Comments


  • yuichiyuichi Urban sprawl 11,329 Posts
    as a kobe fan, you should recognize that utah was the site of bryant's most embarrasing moments as a pro(remember those air balls??)...and for that reason alone you should hate stockton.

    I saw those air balls on clip only recently. But as Cedric Ceballos says in the SportsCentury interview, "Kobe was the only one that said 'I want to take the last shot'".

    Stockton = Legend. No discussion. If Nash wins a title, then he will be in the running for GOAT. Simple as that.

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    but all I gots to say is, Steve Nash is good but he'll have to accomplish much more before he's in the Magic/Isiah/Stockton camp.

    Droppin Science

    he is better than stockton and has arguably accomplished more by winning 2 mvps. try naming some pgs who have won mvp in the last 30 years? now how about twice?!?

    isiah was a unique player and nash could never take over a game offensively like him, but comparing the two is strange since isiah was a total scoring pg.

    magic has the height of a power forward, so again, comparing him to nash is also a little unfair.

    price and kj are good comparisons but they played at a time when nba teams scored more points per game. i dont think price would average 9 assists per game in todays' game when teams score 90 points a game.

    Stockton/KJ/Thomas/Magic went to the Championships. What do you prefer, An MVP statue or The Finals?
    Even The Answer has done both.

    Nash, on the other hand just has statues.

    Doesnt Chauncey have a RING and a FINALS MVP?

  • keithvanhornkeithvanhorn 3,855 Posts
    so now even going to the finals automatically makes you a better player? this is a tired debate and i will never be convinced that winning championships has anything to do with whether a player is legendary or not. Pistol Pete played on some horrendous nba teams, is he a legend? george gervin? dominique wilkins? charles barkley?

  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    but all I gots to say is, Steve Nash is good but he'll have to accomplish much more before he's in the Magic/Isiah/Stockton camp.

    Droppin Science

    he is better than stockton and has arguably accomplished more by winning 2 mvps. try naming some pgs who have won mvp in the last 30 years? now how about twice?!?

    Stockton and Malone and a bunch of nobodies while Nash has a much better supporting cast[/b] .

    isiah was a unique player and nash could never take over a game offensively like him, but comparing the two is strange since isiah was a total scoring pg.

    Nash is strictly an OFFENSIVE point guard.....dude doesn't even know how to spell DEFENSE.[/b]


    price and kj are good comparisons but they played at a time when nba teams scored more points per game. i dont think price would average 9 assists per game in todays' game when teams score 90 points a game.

    The Suns average as many points a game as any "old school" team.[/b]

    Stockton was a 10 time All-Star Nash = 4
    Stockton had a career shooting % average of .515 Nash = .468
    Stockton average > 2 steals per game Nash < 1
    Stockton had a four year run of 17 pts. & 14 apg
    Nash has never averaged more than 11 apg.

    Stockton had years of averaging less than 2 turnovers a game
    Nash averaged 5 per game in his 1st MVP season

    I never liked John Stockton......thought he and Malone were dirty players.

    But to say Nash is better is absurd.
    If he has 5 more years playing at the level he has the last 2 then we can start comparing.

  • keithvanhornkeithvanhorn 3,855 Posts
    stockton is no slouch, but the guy had the ball in his hands 90% of the game if not more and the entire offense was set up around pick and rolls between him and malone. if he averaged under 10 assists a game in that system he would have been a disgrace.

    nash plays with a lot of guys who can handle the rock just fine and there are plenty of occasions where he doesnt even touch the ball on offensive trips (particularly transition plays). that never happened with stockton. he was like the designated dribbler on the jazz.

    stockton was great but he is overrated. nash is an all around baller.

  • G_BalliandoG_Balliando 3,916 Posts
    so now even going to the finals automatically makes you a better player? this is a tired debate and i will never be convinced that winning championships has anything to do with whether a player is legendary or not. Pistol Pete played on some horrendous nba teams, is he a legend? george gervin? dominique wilkins? charles barkley?

    To an individual player, I would say the league MVP is more prestigious than going to the finals, only because going to the finals has to be a team accomplishment. MVP is an individual accomplishment. Finals MVP is also a great accomplishment, but that is over 7 games between the 2 best teams, whereas the league MVP is for an entire 82 game season and is the accomplishment of the one player on his own, regardless of how well the team does.

    That said, has anybody ever gotten league MVP and finals MVP in the same year?



  • I never liked John Stockton......thought he and Malone were dirty players.

    But to say Nash is better is absurd.
    If he has 5 more years playing at the level he has the last 2 then we can start comparing.

    Speak. 'Nuff said.

  • G_BalliandoG_Balliando 3,916 Posts
    of the one player on his own, regardless of how well the team does.

    That said, has anybody ever gotten league MVP and finals MVP in the same year?

    Gotta answer my own question here, Jordan did it 4 times I think. How about league MVP, Finals MVP AND All-Star MVP?

    edit: I think Jordan actually only did it twice. Malone was getting league MVP a couple of the years the bulls won the finals...

    Either way, Jordan is the greatest player ever, who cares about Nash

  • faux_rillzfaux_rillz 14,343 Posts
    of the one player on his own, regardless of how well the team does.

    That said, has anybody ever gotten league MVP and finals MVP in the same year?

    Gotta answer my own question here, Jordan did it 4 times I think.

    Timmy in '03?

  • G_BalliandoG_Balliando 3,916 Posts
    Yeah Duncan got league and finals mvp in 02-03. And I think I figured out that Jordan got all 3 MVP awards in the 97-98 season. That's pretty big pimpin' for a dude at the end of his career.


  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts

    stockton was great but he is overrated. nash is an all around baller.

    This may be the silliest thing ever posted here.....Nash plays NOOOOOO Defense, how can he be an "all-around" anything??

  • Pre Phoenix:

    Year Team G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
    96-97 PHO 65 2 10.5 .423 .418 .824 0.2 0.7 1.0 2.1 0.3 0.0 0.97 1.40 3.3
    97-98 PHO 76 9 21.9 .459 .415 .860 0.4 1.7 2.1 3.4 0.8 0.0 1.29 1.90 9.1
    98-99 DAL 40 40 31.7 .363 .374 .826 0.8 2.1 2.9 5.5 0.9 0.0 2.08 2.50 7.9
    99-00 DAL 56 27 27.4 .477 .403 .882 0.6 1.6 2.2 4.9 0.7 0.0 1.82 2.20 8.6
    00-01 DAL 70 70 34.1 .487 .406 .895 0.7 2.5 3.2 7.3 1.0 0.1 2.93 2.30 15.6
    01-02 DAL 82 82 34.6 .483 .455 .887 0.6 2.5 3.1 7.7 0.6 0.0 2.79 2.00 17.9
    02-03 DAL 82 82 33.1 .465 .413 .909 0.8 2.1 2.9 7.3 1.0 0.1 2.34 1.60 17.7
    03-04 DAL 78 78 33.5 .470 .405 .916 0.8 2.2 3.0 8.8 0.9 0.1 2.68 1.80 14.5

    Four years of fighting injuries. Four years as a really solid player on a perennial playoff team. 3 years post-30 in a perfect system putting up some real numbers numbers. Better than Stockton? BETTER THAN STOCKTON?????

  • keithvanhornkeithvanhorn 3,855 Posts
    well, you took what i said out of context. my point was that utah's offense was atypical in that they relied on pick and rolls for stockton and not on moving the ball aroudn and setting screens off the ball. therefore, if he didnt get a massive amount of assists, that offense would be a complete failure. pheonix is more uptempo and, although Nash is the floor general, they score plenty in transition and even in half court without the ball going through him.

    by "all around baller" i mean to say that Nash is the real deal. he works for what he gets and his stats are not inflated due to a 2 man pick and roll offense. a successful pick and roll requires the defense to switch or double team. either way, stockton had a mismatch or an open man....and malone was pretty good at a setting a screen.

  • rkwparkrkwpark 915 Posts
    stockton had some sharp elbows and some short shorts.

    depending on the system im running, run&gun id go for nash but half court system the nod goes to stockton.

    at times i got stockton and hornacek confused on the court!

  • he works for what he gets and his stats are not inflated due to a 2 man pick and roll offense.

    Doesn't PHX run a high % of these plays?

  • Arenas is donedy for the year. Torn meniscus. That sucks for y'all Bullets fans, and for the league.

  • G_BalliandoG_Balliando 3,916 Posts
    I saw on ESPN about Arenas. That really sucks. Not that I thought that the Wizards were really going anywhere in the playoffs, but I was still kinda hoping for him and Butlers' sake. That's too bad, I hope he can recover and get back to it next season. Dude was killing the game winners this season.

  • yuichiyuichi Urban sprawl 11,329 Posts
    but all I gots to say is, Steve Nash is good but he'll have to accomplish much more before he's in the Magic/Isiah/Stockton camp.

    Droppin Science

    he is better than stockton and has arguably accomplished more by winning 2 mvps. try naming some pgs who have won mvp in the last 30 years? now how about twice?!?

    isiah was a unique player and nash could never take over a game offensively like him, but comparing the two is strange since isiah was a total scoring pg.

    magic has the height of a power forward, so again, comparing him to nash is also a little unfair.

    price and kj are good comparisons but they played at a time when nba teams scored more points per game. i dont think price would average 9 assists per game in todays' game when teams score 90 points a game.

    Stockton/KJ/Thomas/Magic went to the Championships. What do you prefer, An MVP statue or The Finals?
    Even The Answer has done both.

    Nash, on the other hand just has statues.

    Doesnt Chauncey have a RING and a FINALS MVP?

    CHAUNCEY. All-around baller. And one of the GOAT.



  • CHAUNCEY. And one of the GOAT.

    Whaaat? Not even close. Dude has like 3 or 4 good years.

  • faux_rillzfaux_rillz 14,343 Posts


    CHAUNCEY. And one of the GOAT.

    Whaaat? Not even close. Dude has like 3 or 4 good years.

    You may have noticed that Yuichi speaks in absolutes; if you're not "old" or don't "suck," you are a GOAT by default!

  • JRootJRoot 861 Posts
    Sorry to see that Arenas is injured. he's a dynamic player, fun to watch.

    I'm also sorry to see that Lamarcus Aldridge has a suspicious heart ailment that is keeping him sidelined. I don't need another Hank Gathers episode. Neither do the Portland Trailblazers.

    Roy for ROY.
    JRoot

  • motown67motown67 4,513 Posts
    Here's what I thought was a really good piece in the new SI about how the Mavs and Suns game planned for each other. I always like these behind the scene type pieces.

    Methods to the Madness
    Who says NBA teams don't game-plan? SI went behind closed doors with the Mavericks and the Suns to see how the two rivals strategized for their Western Conference showdown
    Posted: Tuesday April 3, 2007 11:06AM; Updated: Tuesday April 3, 2007 11:06AM
    Jack McCallum
    Sports Illustrated

    With about five minutes left in Sunday's game at US Airways Center in Phoenix, the Dallas Mavericks went to a matchup zone, their dozenth defense of the afternoon. The Suns appeared confused, but eventually forward Shawn Marion darted to his left across the lane and put up a righthanded floater that was nearly blocked. It was an awful-looking shot. It also went in, giving Phoenix a 109-96 lead that all but sealed its 126-104 victory.

    To some, the shot said it all about NBA basketball, 48 minutes of seemingly spontaneous, even chaotic action packed into 24-second intervals. While football coaches plan with the precision of generals and baseball managers rely on cold, hard percentages (not to mention countless bromides), basketball coaches can apparently do nothing to affect the outcome. They're left to pace the sideline, scream at referees and add a sweat-ring pattern to their Armani suits as their players ad lib.

    Not the case. When the league's two best teams took the court, they did so with meticulously calibrated game plans in place. In fact, every NBA team goes into a game with a plan, even the Memphis Grizzlies, who appear to have no plan at all except to lose as often as possible and add Greg Oden or Kevin Durant to their roster. The schemes of the Mavs and the Suns were more hastily constructed than ones in the NFL (both teams had played last Friday night) and were extremely fluid. But they had been formulated -- just as those in the NFL are -- only after hours of film watching and with an attention to detail that would amaze even an aficionado, never mind the guy who thinks the NBA stands for No Brainpower Allowed.

    With the win Phoenix tied the season series at 2-2, took a 12-11 edge (playoff games included) in meetings over the last three years and added further intrigue to the MVP race. Dallas forward Dirk Nowitzki probably had a slight edge going in but had a subpar game (21 points on 6-of-18 shooting), while Suns point guard Steve Nash had 23 on seven fewer shots to go with 11 assists.

    But those stats are only numbers. Before the teams took the court, they gave SI a glimpse into their pregame strategies. It's possible they will meet in the playoffs for the third straight year, so as Phoenix assistant Marc Iavaroni said, "We're not going to throw everything out there, and neither are they."

    The Mavericks' Plan

    Assistant coach Joe Prunty is in charge of the initial game plan because the Suns have been "his team" throughout the season. Most NBA teams do it that way, divvying up responsibility for all opponents among the assistants. If Nash starts tying his sneakers a different way, Prunty will know about it. He began studying the Suns -- "not that I ever really forget about them" -- a few hours after the Mavs beat New York 105-103 last Friday in Dallas. (The Knicks are Prunty's team, too, so he had been busy with them to that point.) Prunty went home and watched parts of Phoenix's last three games, including that night's 125-108 win over the Denver Nuggets, looking for anything new the Suns had been doing since their memorable 129-127, double-overtime win over the Mavericks on March 14. He came away wondering about two things:

    ??? Is Marion injured, coasting or just less involved in the offense? His quickness had hurt Dallas in recent seasons, but over the last month his play had been subpar.

    ??? Should he include much about the Suns' reserves in the game plan? In their 124-119 loss at Golden State last Thursday, the bench players had staged a fourth-quarter rally.

    Marion's inspired play in the win over the Nuggets persuades Prunty to emphasize him heavily in the game plan and not to worry too much about the reserves.

    The Mavs get a chance to work on the Suns' tendencies twice: at a light practice on Saturday before they leave Dallas, and on a Sunday-morning run-through in a ballroom at the team hotel before the 12:30 p.m. tipoff. At practice, little-used rookie guard Jos?? Barea is excited because he gets to impersonate Nash. "Especially what I do is keep my dribble longer, go through and around the basket," says Barea. "I don't usually play like that. No one does except Steve Nash." Prunty presents the rudiments of the Phoenix pick-and-roll, and coach Avery Johnson frequently stops the action to talk about specifics.

    An NBA game plan is mainly about defense, more specifically about defending two things: the pick-and-roll (usually but not always involving guards) and post-ups (usually but not always involving big men). "Some teams, like Charlotte, run more shooters off screens than they run pick-and-rolls," says Prunty. "But, of course, it's all about personnel. Everybody runs pick-and-rolls, but not everybody has Nash."

    By Sunday morning, after weighing the intelligence from Prunty and the other assistants, Johnson makes a general decision: The Mavs will start basic. They'll try to fight through pick-and-rolls or make conventional switches rather than trying to aggressively double-team. They want to make a statement that they are the team with a league-best 61-11 record, and that it's the 54-18 Suns who will have to do the adjusting. "We've overthought this team in the past," says sixth man Jerry Stackhouse.

    But the Mavericks know that they will have to add wrinkles as the game unfolds. Specifically, they have had some success "blacking" Nash -- that is, forcing him away from the center of the court by doubling him on the pick-and-roll. Plus, though they will start with 6'2" Jason Terry on the 6'3" Nash, they know that 6'7" defensive stalwart Josh Howard will eventually guard him, using his height to limit Nash's extraordinary range of vision.

    Though the Dallas coaches have looked through piles and piles of paper -- they can tell you how many times, say, Nash dribbles to his left and pulls up and how many times he continues to the basket -- they will give each player only one sheet, which summarizes the tendencies of every Sun. "We find left-behind reports all the time," says assistant Del Harris. "Players should be able to remember these things, anyway."Although the lineup change has a domino effect on defensive assignments -- Marion will now start out guarding Nowitzki -- the Suns' major game-plan questions and answers remain the same: How can they limit Nowitzki? (By stunting, or giving different looks with their double teams.) Whom can they leave open when they double-team? (Definitely Harris, and definitely not Nowitzki or Terry.) What do they do when Stackhouse enters the game? (Keep him out of his favored left corner.)

    The Suns' Plan

    Thirty minutes after Phoenix dusted off Denver, guard Raja Bell headed home for a couple hours of TiVo'd programming. Normally it's CSI; tonight it's the Mavs-Knicks game.

    "I started thinking about Dallas as soon as this one was over," says Bell. "Right now my own game plan is all about my principals and their tendencies. When Jason Terry is coming off a screen-roll to his right hand, you must have your big [a Suns forward or center] up. You can't just let him step into the pocket and shoot a jump shot. And he likes to go right. With Dirk [Nowitzki], you can't play off him. You have to stay up underneath him because he's all about footwork and balance. [Guard] Devin Harris likes to go to the basket."

    At the same time that Bell is replaying the game, a bleary-eyed Iavaroni is in the middle of his film study at home. Like Prunty, Iavaroni had responsibility for a team on Friday night, and because he's known for watching more film than Scorsese, says, "I'm going to look like hell tomorrow morning."

    And he does, when the coaches gather in their upstairs office to assemble their game plan. Iavaroni is thrown a curveball when coach Mike D'Antoni says that he's going to start guard Leandro Barbosa instead of forward Boris Diaw. While the Mavs' season has been a study in stability -- few injuries, consistent play, a set rotation -- the Suns have undergone several tweaks, all done in an effort to catch the Mavs in the Western Conference race and stay ahead of the San Antonio Spurs.

    Even for an up-tempo team like Phoenix, the focus is primarily on D. The Suns decide on a menu of strategies: They will trap Terry when he runs a pick-and-roll with lumbering, nonshooting center Erick Dampier; they will "raid and get back" (attack the ball but move back before double-teaming) on pick-and-rolls with Nowitzki and Terry; they will go "way under" on pick-and-rolls involving Harris, meaning that they will give him space and allow -- nay, encourage -- him to shoot; and they will switch on pick-and-rolls involving Howard.

    Like the Mavs' staff, Phoenix's considers individual tendencies in formulating the game plan. One example of the detail from the Nowitzki sheet:

    KEY ON RIGHT SHOULDER. He will turn his back on the perimeter or post, looking to almost always come back to fallaway over right shoulder. Also working on right hook from left block. Long rebounder!! Likes to strip ball on D. Get elbow out, draw contact. Block from behind.

    Although the Suns have this and many other tidbits about Nowitzki, that didn't stop him from getting 30, 27 and 35 points in their three previous meetings.

    The Game

    The first half, which ends with Phoenix leading 60-56, is played at the Suns' preferred allegro pace. While they can't get a handle on Howard (18 points) or Stackhouse (13), they do a good job on the pick-and-rolls and on Nowitzki in particular. When Bell or Diaw is on him, the game plan calls for Marion to either "one-swipe" Nowitzki (slide over briefly and take a swipe at the ball so that he picks it up) or come late to contest Nowitzki's shot and perhaps block it from behind. Nowitzki feels the pressure and struggles to 11 points. Dallas doesn't have the 7-foot Dampier, whose presence would have prevented the Suns from going with a small lineup; he strained his right shoulder in the win over the Knicks and is in street clothes.

    When the Suns start the second half red-hot, the Mavericks begin varying their pick-and-roll coverages. But the greater the number of options, the greater the chances for confusion. As much as anything, in-game adjustments are about reconciling the coverage scheme with the tendencies of individual players. For example, Dallas likes to push perimeter dribblers toward the left sideline. But that's the wrong thing to do with Barbosa, who can accelerate past any defender when allowed to go to his left.

    Hoping to keep up with the Suns, Dallas goes with a small lineup. A pattern develops on high pick-and-rolls -- the Mavs' defensive switch puts a smaller player, typically the 6'6" Stackhouse, on the 6'8" Diaw. While Diaw tends to pass too much, he doesn't turn down opportunities to post up a smaller man. He makes three of five shots in the second half, all of them crucial.

    And when Dallas doubles Diaw to get help for its smaller defender, he repeatedly finds his teammates on the perimeter. The Mavericks' game plan called for defenders to stay home on Barbosa, but in their eagerness to help down low, he gets too many open looks. The Brazilian Blur makes all three of his second-half three-pointers (finishing with a game-high 29 points), and the Suns pull away, snapping the Mavericks' nine-game winning streak.

    The Mavs were unquestionably disappointed in the coverage mistakes they made, and the Suns were elated that their schemes limited Nowitzki's output and Terry's opportunities. (He got up only 13 shots.) "Your margin for error is slim when you play the Suns," says Terry, "so you must stick to the game plan and execute on both ends of the floor."

    Of course, it doesn't hurt when your team is making shots, and on this afternoon Phoenix made an astonishing 72.7% of its field goal attempts in the second half and 64.8% for the game. "We discovered the ideal game plan," says D'Antoni. "We made just about every shot. I guess that means we're geniuses."

  • yuichiyuichi Urban sprawl 11,329 Posts


    CHAUNCEY. And one of the GOAT.

    Whaaat? Not even close. Dude has like 3 or 4 good years.

    You may have noticed that Yuichi speaks in absolutes; if you're not "old" or don't "suck," you are a GOAT by default!

    Okay, maybe not GOAT, but Chauncey Billups is a great player. Best believe. He can hit the clutch three, make the crispy pass, and back down the smaller guards. And like Batmon has said, got a ring and a finals mvp.


    My scale goes like this....

    Raja Bell
    D-league
    Good
    Great
    GOAT [/b]

  • yuichiyuichi Urban sprawl 11,329 Posts
    Note:

    You could only be a "Legend" if you're Great or above.


    Example: Charles Barkley is ringless, but still Great and a Legend.

    Steve Nash is between Good and Great.




    Anybody else wanna try???

  • yuichiyuichi Urban sprawl 11,329 Posts
    Chauncey Billups is rare. He is great, but not a legend.

    In order to be a legend, you need intagibles going for you, such as being the franchise player, having a post-NBA broadcasting career, having your own shoe, or all of these.

  • yuichiyuichi Urban sprawl 11,329 Posts
    John Stockton is Great and a Legend.

    Raja Bell is actually between D-League and Good.

  • keithvanhornkeithvanhorn 3,855 Posts



    Anybody else wanna try???

    there should be an additional category for "Revolutionary".


    players who changed the game:

    Wilt Chamberlain (more than anyone else- 3 second violation, no jumping passed the foul line on a ft, no zone defense, no goaltending. all anti-wilt rules)
    Oscar Robertson (the big pg who could do it all 20 years before Magic)
    Michael Jordan/Doctor J (above the rim play for a non-big man)
    Kevin Garnett/Lebron James (first legit high school to pro in decades. set the trend. and first high schooler to be all-star caliber in rookie season)


    Who was the first european star? Petrovic? Vlade?

  • faux_rillzfaux_rillz 14,343 Posts

    Raja Bell is actually between D-League and Good.

    That's big of you.

  • yuichiyuichi Urban sprawl 11,329 Posts

    Raja Bell is actually between D-League and Good.

    That's big of you.

    This is a joke.

  • yuichiyuichi Urban sprawl 11,329 Posts



    Anybody else wanna try???

    there should be an additional category for "Revolutionary".


    players who changed the game:

    Wilt Chamberlain (more than anyone else- 3 second violation, no jumping passed the foul line on a ft, no zone defense, no goaltending. all anti-wilt rules)
    Oscar Robertson (the big pg who could do it all 20 years before Magic)
    Michael Jordan/Doctor J (above the rim play for a non-big man)
    Kevin Garnett/Lebron James (first legit high school to pro in decades. set the trend. and first high schooler to be all-star caliber in rookie season)


    Who was the first european star? Petrovic? Vlade?

    B-. Please follow my format next time.

    Kevin Garnett is great (pending).

    Lebron James is great (pending).
Sign In or Register to comment.