I think based on O-Dub's analysis, Paul's Boutique still kinda fits the bill.
Except for the fact that it was only their second album, but they were pretty huge after L2I.
Backstory? I dunno...I think they were ready to be off on a different style and they just said fuck-you to the frat boys and girls who made them millionaires off of L2I (and the record execs). Also, disassociation with Rick Rubin, relocation to west coast, etc etc.
from wiki (fwiw): "Paul's Boutique was initially considered a commercial failure by the executives at Capitol Records, as its sales did not match that of the group's previous record, Licensed to Ill, and the label eventually decided to stop promoting the album. The album's popularity continued to grow, however, and it has since been touted as a breakthrough achievement for the Beastie Boys. Highly varied lyrically and sonically, Paul's Boutique secured the Beastie Boys' place as critical favorites in the hip-hop genre. The album's rankings near the top of many publications' "best albums" lists in disparate genres has given Paul's Boutique critical recognition as a landmark album in hip hop."
I think based on O-Dub's analysis, Paul's Boutique still kinda fits the bill.
Except for the fact that it was only their second album, but they were pretty huge after L2I.
Backstory? I dunno...I think they were ready to be off on a different style and they just said fuck-you to the frat boys and girls who made them millionaires off of L2I (and the record execs). Also, disassociation with Rick Rubin, relocation to west coast, etc etc.
from wiki (fwiw): "Paul's Boutique was initially considered a commercial failure by the executives at Capitol Records, as its sales did not match that of the group's previous record, Licensed to Ill, and the label eventually decided to stop promoting the album. The album's popularity continued to grow, however, and it has since been touted as a breakthrough achievement for the Beastie Boys. Highly varied lyrically and sonically, Paul's Boutique secured the Beastie Boys' place as critical favorites in the hip-hop genre. The album's rankings near the top of many publications' "best albums" lists in disparate genres has given Paul's Boutique critical recognition as a landmark album in hip hop."
They didn't even tour for the album.
They were way too popular when PB came out. Gaye was fading off the radar.
Do you remember how huge they were even right before PB dropped and after/during the Hey Ladies Single?
It's beginning to feel like a moving target; if the release somewhat fits the bill, there are reasons why the artist doesn't. If the artist does, then there are reasons why the release doesn't.
It could be we haven't realized rap's HMD yet, especially as the majority of artists are only now beginning to enter that stage of their career where they are feeling comfortable and secure enough to get more personal....or that HMD is so beautifully unique - like Gaye - that we are trying to cram a square peg into a round hole.
Although I suggested Paul's Boutique on the merits of the record alone, not taking into consideration the artists/story, I am beginning to lean towards Kanye. The backstory may not be as unique as HMD - hard shoes to fill on that count - but the personal impact is hard to deny....how revered the music itself is, though, is another story. Again, it might be too soon to say.
It's beginning to feel like a moving target; if the release somewhat fits the bill, there are reasons why the artist doesn't. If the artist does, then there are reasons why the release doesn't.
It could be we haven't realized rap's HMD yet, especially as the majority of artists are only now beginning to enter that stage of their career where they are feeling comfortable and secure enough to get more personal....or that HMD is so beautifully unique - like Gaye - that we are trying to cram a square peg into a round hole.
Although I suggested Paul's Boutique on the merits of the record alone, not taking into consideration the artists/story, I am beginning to lean towards Kanye. The backstory may not be as unique as HMD - hard shoes to fill on that count - but the personal impact is hard to deny....how revered the music itself is, though, is another story. Again, it might be too soon to say.
The problem is that HMD is such a unique album that, by definition, you can't find an easy equivalent to it.
The private mind garden equivalent would have been:
1) Biggie living.
2) Biggie and Faith getting divorced.
3) Biggie recorded a f--- you album to pay off part of that settlement.
4) That album lacking real commercial appeal (which also suggests Puffy would have had little to do with it)
5) That album being kind of genius but no one seeing it right at that time.
You can replace 2 + 3. Maybe it's not a divorce. Maybe Biggie wanted to get off of Bad Boy and recorded a f--- you album to complete his contract (that's happened enough times in music history, no?). But that's the scenario you'd need to approach HMD status, at minimum.
The redemption of "Paul's Boutique" happened very quickly. It didn't take a generation for cats to come around to it. And it wasn't that weird of an album; it's only weird compared to the expectations they had laid down on "Licensed to Ill."
HMD was a weird fucking album. There's no way you can listen to it and not think, at various points, "holy shit, what was Marvin drinking during this?" There are hip-hop albums like that - "JBeez Wit the Remedy" being a classic example (except it still remains unredeemed).
HMD was a weird fucking album. There's no way you can listen to it and not think, at various points, "holy shit, what was Marvin drinking during this?"
but you don;t have to think to hard on it beause marvin laid it all out:
---"Throwing cocaine up my nose, getting in and out my clothes, fooling round with midnight ho's"
---smoking interplanetary weed with his ex in the plutotarium
---"why do i have to pay attorney fees? attorney fees! this is a joke, i need a smoke"
HMD was a weird fucking album. There's no way you can listen to it and not think, at various points, "holy shit, what was Marvin drinking during this?"
but you don;t have to think to hard on it beause marvin laid it all out:
---"Throwing cocaine up my nose, getting in and out my clothes, fooling round with midnight ho's"
---smoking interplanetary weed with his ex in the plutotarium
---"why do i have to pay attorney fees? attorney fees! this is a joke, i need a smoke"
Ha, in that context, maybe we have this all wrong: "Here My Dear" was a hip-hop album! I mean, it's got coke, hookers and attorney fees.
HMD was a weird fucking album. There's no way you can listen to it and not think, at various points, "holy shit, what was Marvin drinking during this?"
but you don;t have to think to hard on it beause marvin laid it all out:
---"Throwing cocaine up my nose, getting in and out my clothes, fooling round with midnight ho's"
---smoking interplanetary weed with his ex in the plutotarium
---"why do i have to pay attorney fees? attorney fees! this is a joke, i need a smoke"
Ha, in that context, maybe we have this all wrong: "Here My Dear" was a hip-hop album! I mean, it's got coke, hookers and attorney fees.
was HMD "slept on"? Shit is in every record collection i look at.
it was panned hard by most critics at the time (with the notable exception of robert christigau) who considered the album extremely self-indulgent and mean-spirited. the only track that made any commerical headway was "funky space reincarnation" and i don;t think it made that much headway. did marvin ever perform any of these songs live? was he embarassed of it?
it wasn;t until the mid to late 90's that there was a cd issue and critical re-appraisal.
Having just revisited this album, the main issue with this is that the album is just not very good.
Is it even a Hip Hop album?
I though it was some Electronica shit.
I'd say, going by today's standards, it'd still be filed under hip hop. I just can't envision a day when people are going to be lauding the merits of stuff like Robocop
was HMD "slept on"? Shit is in every record collection i look at.
it was panned hard by most critics at the time (with the notable exception of robert christigau) who considered the album extremely self-indulgent and mean-spirited. the only track that made any commerical headway was "funky space reincarnation" and i don;t think it made that much headway. did marvin ever perform any of these songs live? was he embarassed of it?
it wasn;t until the mid to late 90's that there was a cd issue and critical re-appraisal.
right, but I'm talking about commercial sales.
it's easily one of the most common records to find in average soul/R&B collections.
was HMD "slept on"? Shit is in every record collection i look at.
it was panned hard by most critics at the time (with the notable exception of robert christigau) who considered the album extremely self-indulgent and mean-spirited. the only track that made any commerical headway was "funky space reincarnation" and i don;t think it made that much headway. did marvin ever perform any of these songs live? was he embarassed of it?
it wasn;t until the mid to late 90's that there was a cd issue and critical re-appraisal.
right, but I'm talking about commercial sales.
it's easily one of the most common records to find in average soul/R&B collections.
I'd imagine a year after Got To Give It Up, Marvin was copped by the LBExp.
Ive never seen a sealed copy.
In My Lifetime? - I never saw growing up in nobody's house. Not on the radio, nutthin.
Just a thought... could we somehow reverse engineer this by figuring who put out the hip hop That's The Way Love Is, What's Going On and I Want You?
Also, don't plenty of people still hate on Here, My Dear even now?
If you wanna try to match the career arc.
There are only a couple of cats that have long standing careers and have an "What's Goin On" in their catalog.
You'd have to have a regular ass catalog(at least 2 albums to 10), AND THEN change the game w/ WGO....coast and then end up at HMD.
Its just like Bassie said, "A moving target.
Its ok to NOT have an album to fit the bill. I guess when can have a "well these come close" list.
Unless in ten more years folks will be unearthing the undiscovered genius of some latter day LL album and shit.
"Dont sleep on that last Public Enemy album!" "Flav was on some serious MDMA!"
"Maaaaan NO I.D.s first solo joint set Kanye West and them up!!"
Ha yeah... actually Public Enemy and LL both came to mind. I don't know much about the recent records, though. Nas actually said he was trying to do the same thing with his new record, but I haven't heard that either. Also, not sure if intentionally trying to do Here, My Dear counts as some sort of disqualification.
Also, the matter of public reception takes things out of the hands of the artist to a degree - but then, for example, I can't remember the last time a new Nas album was greeted with anything but a sort of expected disappointment.
The career-length thing does clear the field considerably. That's only assuming we're looking at things from that sort of macro perspective. The main criteria, if I recall, were 1. it's on some alienating personal tip 2. only to be appreciated later on. I don't want to derail anything, but thought maybe the career trajectory, other albums lining up thing might be worth considering.
Not really. I know he likened it to HMD himself, but just because you say so doesn't make it so. Not to be unfair to what he went through, but I don't get the same soul-bearing, dark depth from Life is Good. I mean even titling it Life is Good doesn't really put him in the same place Gaye was with Here, My Dear, you know?
Yep, that's true. Not unlike bands that have said they made a record that sounded like Can or The Velvet Underground or Revolver. Come to think of it, I think Drake might have made similar claims about his new album - or was that someone else?
I'll have to give it a listen in any case, your recommendation makes me want to check it out.
Does he even "snap" at Kelis or have some undercurrent of hatt?
Not really, it really doesn't feel that angry/disillusioned of a journey to me. Take it with a grain of relative salt, but Nas seems like a pretty well-adjusted guy to me. Even any dis/malicious moments just don't resonate too tough.
I think this is an interesting discussion, but I think a HMD hip hop album is simply impossible. That album has such crazy parameters for its creation, it seems impossible to create in nearly any genre, let alone you'd need a hip hop guy who had a career, was falling off, then created a masterpiece when s/he was old. As said before, the only people who could really even fit the criteria would be dudes like KRS, LL, Snoop, Kurupt, etc, and they ain't making masterpieces lately. Hip hop ain't really an old man's game, and Grown Ass Man Rap still hasn't taken off yet. I just think it's an impossibility to have an album fit unless you disregard some of the conditions under which HMD was created.
I'd also like to take a moment to say J Beez Wit The Remedy and Four Horsemen both suck.
Comments
Except for the fact that it was only their second album, but they were pretty huge after L2I.
Backstory? I dunno...I think they were ready to be off on a different style and they just said fuck-you to the frat boys and girls who made them millionaires off of L2I (and the record execs). Also, disassociation with Rick Rubin, relocation to west coast, etc etc.
from wiki (fwiw): "Paul's Boutique was initially considered a commercial failure by the executives at Capitol Records, as its sales did not match that of the group's previous record, Licensed to Ill, and the label eventually decided to stop promoting the album. The album's popularity continued to grow, however, and it has since been touted as a breakthrough achievement for the Beastie Boys. Highly varied lyrically and sonically, Paul's Boutique secured the Beastie Boys' place as critical favorites in the hip-hop genre. The album's rankings near the top of many publications' "best albums" lists in disparate genres has given Paul's Boutique critical recognition as a landmark album in hip hop."
They didn't even tour for the album.
They were way too popular when PB came out. Gaye was fading off the radar.
Do you remember how huge they were even right before PB dropped and after/during the Hey Ladies Single?
It could be we haven't realized rap's HMD yet, especially as the majority of artists are only now beginning to enter that stage of their career where they are feeling comfortable and secure enough to get more personal....or that HMD is so beautifully unique - like Gaye - that we are trying to cram a square peg into a round hole.
Although I suggested Paul's Boutique on the merits of the record alone, not taking into consideration the artists/story, I am beginning to lean towards Kanye. The backstory may not be as unique as HMD - hard shoes to fill on that count - but the personal impact is hard to deny....how revered the music itself is, though, is another story. Again, it might be too soon to say.
The problem is that HMD is such a unique album that, by definition, you can't find an easy equivalent to it.
The private mind garden equivalent would have been:
1) Biggie living.
2) Biggie and Faith getting divorced.
3) Biggie recorded a f--- you album to pay off part of that settlement.
4) That album lacking real commercial appeal (which also suggests Puffy would have had little to do with it)
5) That album being kind of genius but no one seeing it right at that time.
You can replace 2 + 3. Maybe it's not a divorce. Maybe Biggie wanted to get off of Bad Boy and recorded a f--- you album to complete his contract (that's happened enough times in music history, no?). But that's the scenario you'd need to approach HMD status, at minimum.
The redemption of "Paul's Boutique" happened very quickly. It didn't take a generation for cats to come around to it. And it wasn't that weird of an album; it's only weird compared to the expectations they had laid down on "Licensed to Ill."
HMD was a weird fucking album. There's no way you can listen to it and not think, at various points, "holy shit, what was Marvin drinking during this?" There are hip-hop albums like that - "JBeez Wit the Remedy" being a classic example (except it still remains unredeemed).
but you don;t have to think to hard on it beause marvin laid it all out:
---"Throwing cocaine up my nose, getting in and out my clothes, fooling round with midnight ho's"
---smoking interplanetary weed with his ex in the plutotarium
---"why do i have to pay attorney fees? attorney fees! this is a joke, i need a smoke"
Ha, in that context, maybe we have this all wrong: "Here My Dear" was a hip-hop album! I mean, it's got coke, hookers and attorney fees.
Not to mention... raps!
RZA, at the top of his game + Prince Paul, past the peak but still relevant (coming off Buhloone)
Record's purpose is to give a ridiculous, cathartic FUCK YOU to the recording industry
Album is initially misunderstood, thought to be "horror-core" or Satanism or whatever
Now is lauded as a classic and underappreciated masterpiece.
It's not perfect, but better than anything else I see in this thread (except maybe 808s)
Isnt not Horrorcore?
It wasnt slept on at all.
Having just revisited this album, the main issue with this is that the album is just not very good.
I was thinking, "misunderstood".
No, it wasn't horrorcore. That was dudes like Flatlinerz and Brotha Lynch Hung
iirc dudes were in the media talmbout "this isn't horrorcore, it's a metaphor for the music industry" or some such...
Is it even a Hip Hop album?
I though it was some Electronica shit.
it was panned hard by most critics at the time (with the notable exception of robert christigau) who considered the album extremely self-indulgent and mean-spirited. the only track that made any commerical headway was "funky space reincarnation" and i don;t think it made that much headway. did marvin ever perform any of these songs live? was he embarassed of it?
it wasn;t until the mid to late 90's that there was a cd issue and critical re-appraisal.
I'd say, going by today's standards, it'd still be filed under hip hop. I just can't envision a day when people are going to be lauding the merits of stuff like Robocop
right, but I'm talking about commercial sales.
it's easily one of the most common records to find in average soul/R&B collections.
I'd imagine a year after Got To Give It Up, Marvin was copped by the LBExp.
Ive never seen a sealed copy.
In My Lifetime? - I never saw growing up in nobody's house. Not on the radio, nutthin.
Also, don't plenty of people still hate on Here, My Dear even now?
If you wanna try to match the career arc.
There are only a couple of cats that have long standing careers and have an "What's Goin On" in their catalog.
You'd have to have a regular ass catalog(at least 2 albums to 10), AND THEN change the game w/ WGO....coast and then end up at HMD.
Its just like Bassie said, "A moving target.
Its ok to NOT have an album to fit the bill. I guess when can have a "well these come close" list.
Unless in ten more years folks will be unearthing the undiscovered genius of some latter day LL album and shit.
"Dont sleep on that last Public Enemy album!" "Flav was on some serious MDMA!"
"Maaaaan NO I.D.s first solo joint set Kanye West and them up!!"
Also, the matter of public reception takes things out of the hands of the artist to a degree - but then, for example, I can't remember the last time a new Nas album was greeted with anything but a sort of expected disappointment.
The career-length thing does clear the field considerably. That's only assuming we're looking at things from that sort of macro perspective. The main criteria, if I recall, were 1. it's on some alienating personal tip 2. only to be appreciated later on. I don't want to derail anything, but thought maybe the career trajectory, other albums lining up thing might be worth considering.
I was tempted, but haven't checked it out yet.
I'll have to give it a listen in any case, your recommendation makes me want to check it out.
Not really, it really doesn't feel that angry/disillusioned of a journey to me. Take it with a grain of relative salt, but Nas seems like a pretty well-adjusted guy to me. Even any dis/malicious moments just don't resonate too tough.
I was just mentioning that Nas said his new one was like Here, My Dear (I hadn't even heard it).
Bassie said the album was good, but not really anything like Here, My Dear.
I'd also like to take a moment to say J Beez Wit The Remedy and Four Horsemen both suck.
My 2c