Digitizing vinyl question

mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
edited May 2009 in Strut Central
Lately, I've really been feeling like the vinyl I digitize is coming out sounding hella "flat" - as if something during the process takes these distinct layers of sound and then compresses them into a single plane, if that makes any sense. Here's an example of what I mean:
Discover Simple, Private Sharing at Drop.io
Now maybe that's just how the single is supposed to sound but it doesn't feel right to me. My current set-up =Shure White LabelsTechnics 1200which then runs into...Microwave Box 1.0which then runs directly into my laptop where I record it using Sound Studio 3. I've tried recording directly from Microwave into my computer vs. running an audio line from my mixer (post-Microwave box) and those sound identical to my ears. I haven't tried just digitizing from turntable to mixer to computer and bypassing (by unplugging it) the Microwave box though I suppose that'd be the next, obvious thing to try. Any advice? Does that sound clip sound as dynamic as it should? And if not, what are the likely culprits for where the digitizing process is affecting the fidelity of the vinyl source?
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  Comments


  • Jonny_PaycheckJonny_Paycheck 17,825 Posts
    You need a better A/D converter than your microwave box.

  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    You need a better A/D converter than your microwave box.

    And I'm assuming running it directly from the Rane mixer into my laptop sound card wouldn't cut it either?

  • Jonny_PaycheckJonny_Paycheck 17,825 Posts
    Paging Thes

    Nah man, I mean I own a MOTU 828 for recording purposes, and it sounds great when I'm converting vinyl, but that's a multitrack. You really need at least a decent quality stereo converter. It shouldn't break your bank either... if you're ripping files for DJing it's a necessity.

  • BrianBrian 7,618 Posts
    My best recommendation for this is to find existing, properly encoded, digital files of what you are planning on digitizing because it will save a lot of time and more than likely sound better.

    For stuff you can't find, the Microwave is going to sound like shit compared to a good dedicated interface. Recommendations on that will vary depending on cashflow.

  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    What would you recommend for less than $200?

  • BrianBrian 7,618 Posts
    What would you recommend for less than $200?
    Haha, I would recommend sticking with your Microwave box. For $500 you can pick up an Apogee Duet (I'm assuming you're running a Mac) which would probably be the best value for digitizing vinyl that I can think of without breaking the bank.

    http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/duet.php

    The way I figure, with the amount of time that you invest in digitizing vinyl, you might as well invest some money into it to produce higher quality recording. I would hate to spend hundreds of hours digitizing shit, get some upgrades here and there, and then realize that all the shit you recorded previously sounded terrible to what you are capable of.

  • spelunkspelunk 3,400 Posts
    Jon is correct. For less than $200? Honestly dude that's a tough price point. I haven't heard the converters in the new Microwave box but they may be somewhat better. If you want to do things proper I'd recommend the Apogee Duet, but that's about double what you want to spend (use the D70 money to buy it! hahaha)

    What I wouldn't do is go out and spend $200 for some M-Audio BS that has good converters and terrible internal circuitry, hoping that it will help. Because you won't notice the difference that much. The Apogee will be like night and day.

    Also IMO whitelabels aren't the best for digitizing/sampling in my opinion - sometimes what "sounds best" in analog isn't always going to translate the way you want it to digitally. Personally I think Ortofon Nightclubs (Thes aren't you using this too for sampling?) handle dynamics really well and I've been happy using them to digitize vinyl to play out, especially 12-inches. I own whitelabels too though and will use them for some 45s, especially poorly pressed ones.

  • spelunkspelunk 3,400 Posts
    lol me and Brian posting the same thing. It really is the smart choice, I couldn't be happier with mine.

  • BrianBrian 7,618 Posts
    lol me and Brian posting the same thing. It really is the smart choice, I couldn't be happier with mine.

    Haha, I figured someone else would be throwing that one out too.

    Also, RE: new Microwave box, have you seen any A/Bing anywhere? Surprised I haven't heard anything yet actually.

  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    What would you recommend for less than $200?
    Haha, I would recommend sticking with your Microwave box.

    Well, that doesn't really solve my problem though if the box is the source of it!

    That said, can anyone confirm that this is the likely source of the problem? Does the sound file above sound "off" or less than ideal? Or maybe I'm just being audio-paranoid.

    $500 is kind of high for my budget (and that D70 money is for my D90, dude!) but then again, as folks point out, I don't want to spend $200 for something half-assed.

  • 4YearGraduate4YearGraduate 2,945 Posts
    I just heard Apogee is discontinuing support for PC's (possibly songsmith related

    Good box for the price though the duet really can't be beat.
    Bypass the Microwave box and go straight into the phono pres with a lower gain setting, lower output, good AD into the computer at proper levels.

    Ortofon nightclub m or equivalent on the tonearm... should be good to go. Oh did i mention the phono pre is going to make the biggest noticable difference here? Big difference between rane mixer and 05 pro, for sure - we're talking both enormous gain and a riaa curve which will really effect the signal the AD gets. I like the crunchy surface mount circuitry of a 90's era Gemini but thas just me.

  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    btw: with the Apogee Duet - I would still need a pre-amp, right?

  • spelunkspelunk 3,400 Posts
    nope haven't seen anything. gonna get one in July anyways though cause I can sell my old Microwave box for a like-new price here in Brasil due to high import taxes.

  • BrianBrian 7,618 Posts
    btw: with the Apogee Duet - I would still need a pre-amp, right?
    No, you wouldn't. Actually, the pres are actually one of their stronger points. Pretty sure they have the same or similar pres as some of Apogee's higher end stuff. Plus it matches well with your Mac.

  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    I just heard Apogee is discontinuing support for PC's (possibly songsmith related

    Good box for the price though the duet really can't be beat.
    Bypass the Microwave box and go straight into the phono pres with a lower gain setting, lower output, good AD into the computer at proper levels.

    Ortofon nightclub m or equivalent on the tonearm... should be good to go. Oh did i mention the phono pre is going to make the biggest noticable difference here? Big difference between rane mixer and 05 pro, for sure - we're talking both enormous gain and a riaa curve which will really effect the signal the AD gets. I like the crunchy surface mount circuitry of a 90's era Gemini but thas just me.

    Thanks Thes - so besides the Duet, any other A/D converters you'd recommend in the same (or less) price range?

    BTW, sorry for not being to move stuff on the Funk Fest forward this semester, shit has been crazy busy on my end. That said, it can still be picked up easily for the future.

  • spelunkspelunk 3,400 Posts
    So Thes when you had the Manley phono pre custom built what were you going for?

    Yeah, you still need a preamp with the Duet. But the Rane 56 should be fine if you like how it sounds.

  • BrianBrian 7,618 Posts
    nope haven't seen anything. gonna get one in July anyways though cause I can sell my old Microwave box for a like-new price here in Brasil due to high import taxes.


  • spelunkspelunk 3,400 Posts
    nope haven't seen anything. gonna get one in July anyways though cause I can sell my old Microwave box for a like-new price here in Brasil due to high import taxes.


    You should see how much an iPhone costs here...$600 and that's with a contract! Viva a industria brasileira! rsrsrs...

  • spelunkspelunk 3,400 Posts
    besides the Duet, any other A/D converters you'd recommend in the same (or less) price range?

    This is the only other thing i can personally vouch for....small company out of Santa Barbara that makes quality stuff. Stable drivers too.

    http://www.echoaudio.com/Products/FireWire/AudioFire2/index.php

  • MondeyanoMondeyano Reykjavik 863 Posts


    Bought this from a recommendation off Soul Strut. Sounds great and it's cheap. Don't know if that makes a difference though if Microwave is what's making your files sound flat.

  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    yeah - I don't think my pre-amp is the problem here.

  • Jonny_PaycheckJonny_Paycheck 17,825 Posts
    what's funny is I use Ortofon Nightclubs in both my store and home set-ups and they sound better than anything!

    So good in fact I've had people trying to return ebay winnings because their needles don't sound as good (digitally, I guess)... roffle. Not really. actually.

  • HorseleechHorseleech 3,830 Posts
    Don't know if this is useful or not, but when I need to digitize a record (seldom), I burn it onto CD with my Harmon Kardon dual CD burner deck and then download it from the CD. In my experience, the rips I make that way always sound better than, say, the commercially released CD of the same record.

  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts

  • spelunkspelunk 3,400 Posts

    Will not help you.

  • UnherdUnherd 1,880 Posts
    No love for digi anything huh guys? I know people frown on their business methods, but nobody thinks the $200 mbox mini would be an economical step up for O?

    I do my transfers with a 002R, but I've been looking to step up my converters for a minute. The duet sounds real nice, too bad im on a pc. Anything portable and small, similar to the duet that people recommend? Spelunk, that Echo Audio thing sounds that good?

  • johmbolayajohmbolaya 4,472 Posts


    Bought this from a recommendation off Soul Strut. Sounds great and it's cheap. Don't know if that makes a difference though if Microwave is what's making your files sound flat.

    I've read some good reviews for this.

  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts


    Bought this from a recommendation off Soul Strut. Sounds great and it's cheap. Don't know if that makes a difference though if Microwave is what's making your files sound flat.

    I've read some good reviews for this.

    Sure, if you don't already have a pre-amp. But you still have to run it through some kind of external or internal soundcard.

  • djdazedjdaze 3,099 Posts
    What would you recommend for less than $200?

    I know I already said this on FB but I will repeat. Mbox Mini, it's $239 so that's just above your price range but worth it IMHO.

  • 4YearGraduate4YearGraduate 2,945 Posts
    The Mbox, unless black lion audio modded is about as good if not worse than the chain he has now. ART is fail.

    If you are on mac, the chipset in the duet is good enough and honestly i don't think you'll get anything cheaper with he same specs. The rolls is an OK preamp but the Radial Engineering Phono pre box is much better for a similar pricepoint. All things equal though the Rane phono pres are VERY good, as long as you don't F*ck up the signal flow. Nightlub elipticals into the rane mixer at medium gain. leaving plenty of headroom - out of the mixer with no additional gain, into duet at only 75% of the total allowable level(because many of the transients will eb hitting faster than the meters can show, so you don't want to distort on the way in) record, normalize, rinse and repeat.

    you will be happy.

    or, get a gemini mixer from the 90's. I am not shitting you guys.


    Oliver, did you send me any emails about the project? When we were in china my mac email server crashed and burned (great firewall related me thinks) and i am still picking up the pieces. Either way it's all good, didn't want you to think i flaked out on the project. My hands are really full trying to navigate this disintegrating music industry. Let's get some food soon.

    spelunk - the Manley custom phon pre is kind of an anomaly, it sounds great for listening but the combination fo 12ax7s and trannies makes for a kind of soggy sampling experience. too much saturation and slewing. Again,back to the stock Gemini for me.
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