Nice dudes and I'll openly admit that I dug thur early work when it had some traces of hip-hop music, I also dug a lot of that Atmosphere and early 2 mex shit-I was also in a very dark and depressed point in life.
Once I got out of that I started liking actual hip-hop music again/ went back to worshiping at the church of Pete Rock, Premo, & Jay-Dilla.
JEL'S Greenball is still the shit, I was pretty blown away by it.
Tommy 7 has some dope beats as well and is one of the nicest dudes ever. You'd be suprised how "golden era" hip-hop all those Anticon dudes actuall know and enjoyed-I was suprised.
Next cut 'Outlook', and later 'Weed Weed', both focus more on Josh's performance on the mic, by stripping the tracks down to little more than bare drumbeats
There's this one track I really liked back in the day. It had Dose, Soul and at least one more of those guys. I was this story of a dude getting shanked in a club and each rapper told it from a different perspective: The victim, the stabber, a bystander. It was a cool concept anyway.
There's this one track I really liked back in the day. It had Dose, Soul and at least one more of those guys. I was this story of a dude getting shanked in a club and each rapper told it from a different perspective: The victim, the stabber, a bystander. It was a cool concept anyway.
Hi
Was it called "three guys in a bar"?
That was a cool track - I think it was done by Sole, Mr. Complex, & one of the Arsonists.
There's this one track I really liked back in the day. It had Dose, Soul and at least one more of those guys. I was this story of a dude getting shanked in a club and each rapper told it from a different perspective: The victim, the stabber, a bystander. It was a cool concept anyway.
Hi
Was it called "three guys in a bar"?
That was a cool track - I think it was done by Sole, Mr. Complex, & one of the Arsonists.
My boy used to work at this record store and one day we had a competition to see who could find the wackest most horrible record. I thought I had him straight beat, I wandered over to the S section and pulled out this record on this Chicago label I had done some stuff with and played him Serf400 - Smarthater. He was like "ohhhhhhhhh daaaaaaaaamn, that's HORRIBLE"
So I'm sittin back laughing thinking I won and he's like "nah, hold up" dude pulls out this CloudDead 10" and puts it on...he won.
i saw sole battle rappin outside some hip-hop show during SXSW one year. he was rapping against some dreadlocked (black) guy. it just looked like a nightmare. he looked like a fat richie cunningham / grizzly adams beard / skater from the early 90s with big clown pants cut into jams / hippy ponytail action / squatter-punk. i don't care for their music.
is that deep thinking scarf wearing DJ apart of their crew?
So I'm sittin back laughing thinking I won and he's like "nah, hold up" dude pulls out this CloudDead 10" and puts it on...he won.
I've never been on the Anticon bandwagon, although I know who Sole and Brandon Best are. However, I love that cLOUDDEAD album, although I prefer the Reaching Giant album myself (which is just cLOUDDEAD minus 1).
I don't know the Anticon family tree, how are cLOUDDEAD/Reaching Giant related to them?
So I'm sittin back laughing thinking I won and he's like "nah, hold up" dude pulls out this CloudDead 10" and puts it on...he won.
I've never been on the Anticon bandwagon, although I know who Sole and Brandon Best are. However, I love that cLOUDDEAD album, although I prefer the Reaching Giant album myself (which is just cLOUDDEAD minus 1).
I don't know the Anticon family tree, how are cLOUDDEAD/Reaching Giant related to them?
I dunno which song it was, they had like 3 different 10" singles by them and this song SUUUUUUUUUCKED.
and the El-P/Sole beef was mildly enthralling way back when.
yeah, I picked up this album/ep called "hiphop music for the advanced listener" or something in Rasputins in Berkely probably in 99 or so. I used to pick up that kind of shit, and I thought Buc 65 was the same person as buc50 -- Buc 50 had that alchemist produced gem "Still Breathing" that sampled labbi sifrin. Anyhoo I heard that Sole answer record "Dear ElP," which I thought was the worst name for a battle record and not a good one at that. A month later I heard that Linda tripp song, and hearing that dude groveling to ElP was pure comedy.
You know, I don't care whether or not people like Anticon, but I often feel like criticism of their music is completely unfair. People most often criticize Anticon's music with a set of aesthetic criteria that the Anticon-ites have no desire to uphold. Or, as the pedestrian himself says in an interview:
In the U.S., opinion on anticon is wildly disparate. I think because the U.S. is such a profoundly racist country, and culture here is thoroughly haunted with the specter of authenticity, anticon becomes a stage on which critics make fantastical claims, either about how anticon is the perfect counterpoint to Jay-Z (it's not) or is hip-hop betrayal made by grad-school poets (it's neither/nor for a number of reasons). To quote Sam Chenault from a pitchforkmedia.com review of Themselves: "Perhaps Dose One would benefit from being reminded that hip-hop is derived from the spoken word traditions of the Last Poets and not the modernist obscurity of Ezra Pound or H. Doolittle??? I won't get into whether Dose is influenced by modernist poets like Pound or H.D. (he's not), as it's beside the point, but notice the way he holds Themselves to hip-hop criteria Themselves never signed on to. In the process, look at how he re-invents hip-hop to fit the measure of his exclusion. Hip-hop doesn't come from the goddamned Last Poets, the Watts Prophets, or Gil-Scott Heron, no matter the black nationalist requirements of critics who demand their rap as unwhite as it gets; it comes out of sound systems, disco breaks, and the needs of parties and park jams. Elsewhere in the review he reveals that hip-hop is necessarily "street-level" and made of "simple loops, lyrics, and beats," and that "shit," surprise surprise, "must be kept real." Well, there's nothing simple about rap and the old equation between blackness and realness is a distinctly American sickness. Finally, Chenault commits the unpardonable critical failure of holding a piece of art to a reductive generic formula that has little to do with the music itself. It's something like criticizing a Tortoise album for how it's not a Ghostface album. "There's not even any rhyming on it!," they squeal.
Again, I'm not arguing whether or not anybody should or shouldn't like the music (after all, I'd be lying if I said, I find myself checking for Anticon projects), but I think pedstrian is wholly on-point here with his analysis of why people hate on Anticon, and why it's mostly unfair and uninteresting criticism... and has a great deal to do with authenticity and race (surprise, surprise).
People most often criticize Anticon's music with a set of aesthetic criteria that the Anticon-ites have no desire to uphold.
For me it boils down to the one thing I judge all music on: the sound. It doesn't sound like anything I would like or be interested in, it sounds like dudes who would've been making bad indie rock records had they started in 1995. To judge their music on its own merits and not on its position in the pantheon of rap music: it sounds like a really bad indie rock-rap fusion - which isn't something I would ever like or listen to
but notice the way he holds Themselves to hip-hop criteria Themselves never signed on to.
I would say releasing an album that is filed in the "Hip Hop/Rap" section they did sign on...
yeah man, we are talking about a crew that's first record was called music for the advancement of hip hop. What the fuck are we supposed to expect? And while Dose One himself may have never explicitly stated that he makes rap records, but this is a guy who came up on the battle circut and has mostly surrounded himself with other hip hop artists and promoted a hip hop aesthetic for the early stages of his career. Like it or not, all artists are judged on the expectations set by their prior work.
I think pedestrian (who, while i don't particularly like his music, seems to be one of the more level headed dudes out of the crew) is overstating the racial impact and overlooking the relative narrowminded nature of record buyers as a whole, in that there are very few artists who can comfortably move through genres without criticism or questioning of motives. Is that a good thing? of course not, but it is a reality, and race has a minimal factor in that. Ask Chris Gaines.
That said, as a purveyor of a lot of extremely experimental music, and not exclusively coming at it from a hip hop perspective, I don't find the majority of anticon's catalog to be particularly interesting. a lot of what they do has been done before, and a lot of it falls into the weird for the sake of weirdness catagory. Personally I've never questioned their motives or authenticity (because really, they are pretty much authenically suburn white boy rap nerds and there's nothing wrong with that, as i can personally vouch for), but i have questioned the enjoyability of their music.
And using a pitchfork review as a reflection of the overall critical response in american music journalism is like using white castle for a case study on american cuisine.
you also raise a good point that they are filed in the rap section. and, in my experience as a college radio hip hop dj i can tell you that we were the ones these records were being promoted to, not the rock or the rpm department.
e - am i experiencing deja vu or did we already have this debate here?
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
Hey,
Perhaps, cultural differences underlie why I can't feel Anticon, or any of that other suburban rap I've heard. Aesthetically, I don't find most of their music and basically all of their rhymin' appealing. It's not a sound that I can relate to given my background. That's not to disparage White guys that rap because I think Eminem, for example, is a truly gifted and exceptional MC (though I can really feel his music). I've been a Beastie Boys fan from day one because they have energy, wit, and incredible production (and Adrock has always had crazy flavor to me). The same can be said of 3rd Bass and Everlast. In general, my issues with suburban rap is it lacks flavor (or charisma) and isn't funky. I simply find it dull and uninteresting.
And using a pitchfork review as a reflection of the overall critical response in american music journalism is like using white castle for a case study on american cuisine.
Perhaps, cultural differences underlie why I can't feel Anticon, or any of that other suburban rap I've heard. Aesthetically, I don't find most of their music and basically all of their rhymin' appealing. It's not a sound that I can relate to given my background. That's not to disparage White guys that rap because I think Eminem, for example, is a truly gifted and exceptional MC (though I can really feel his music). I've been a Beastie Boys fan from day one because they have energy, wit, and incredible production (and Adrock has always had crazy flavor to me). The same can be said of 3rd Bass and Everlast. In general, my issues with suburban rap is it lacks flavor (or charisma) and isn't funky. I simply find it dull and uninteresting.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Well said Stacks. I agree that "Suburban" rap lacks flavor. I also agree that the production is not appealing.
but notice the way he holds Themselves to hip-hop criteria Themselves never signed on to.
I would say releasing an album that is filed in the "Hip Hop/Rap" section they did sign on...
yeah man, we are talking about a crew that's first record was called music for the advancement of hip hop. What the fuck are we supposed to expect? And while Dose One himself may have never explicitly stated that he makes rap records, but this is a guy who came up on the battle circut and has mostly surrounded himself with other hip hop artists and promoted a hip hop aesthetic for the early stages of his career. Like it or not, all artists are judged on the expectations set by their prior work.
I think pedestrian (who, while i don't particularly like his music, seems to be one of the more level headed dudes out of the crew) is overstating the racial impact and overlooking the relative narrowminded nature of record buyers as a whole, in that there are very few artists who can comfortably move through genres without criticism or questioning of motives. Is that a good thing? of course not, but it is a reality, and race has a minimal factor in that. Ask Chris Gaines.
That said, as a purveyor of a lot of extremely experimental music, and not exclusively coming at it from a hip hop perspective, I don't find the majority of anticon's catalog to be particularly interesting. a lot of what they do has been done before, and a lot of it falls into the weird for the sake of weirdness catagory. Personally I've never questioned their motives or authenticity (because really, they are pretty much authenically suburn white boy rap nerds and there's nothing wrong with that, as i can personally vouch for), but i have questioned the enjoyability of their music.
And using a pitchfork review as a reflection of the overall critical response in american music journalism is like using white castle for a case study on american cuisine.
you also raise a good point that they are filed in the rap section. and, in my experience as a college radio hip hop dj i can tell you that we were the ones these records were being promoted to, not the rock or the rpm department.
e - am i experiencing deja vu or did we already have this debate here?
In response to the "Music for the Advancement of Hip Hop" gripes, I've got to say that, as I understand it, that banner really falls on the head of one member of Anticon and one member only: Sole. I was interested in Anticon-affiliated artists and the new scene that seemed to be developing around '97 or so, and I interviewed two affiliated artist separately around the time that the first EP was about to be released. Already at that point, artists who would be appearing on the EP were distancing themselves from the whole "advancement of hip-hop" thing and Anticon in general. A lot of these guys who have been branded "Anticon" for life are, from what I understand, not even friendly with Sole anymore. Some of them were guest artist who were even affiliated with Anticon to begin with!
In response to the "Music for the Advancement of Hip Hop" gripes, I've got to say that, as I understand it, that banner really falls on the head of one member of Anticon and one member only: Sole. I was interested in Anticon-affiliated artists and the new scene that seemed to be developing around '97 or so, and I interviewed two affiliated artist separately around the time that the first EP was about to be released. Already at that point, artists who would be appearing on the EP were distancing themselves from the whole "advancement of hip-hop" thing and Anticon in general. A lot of these guys who have been branded "Anticon" for life are, from what I understand, not even friendly with Sole anymore. Some of them were guest artist who were even affiliated with Anticon to begin with!
I used to deal with SOLE and MOODSWING9 back in the rec.music.hiphop, alt.rap days when they ran "truehiphop.com". I had a online radio program on there called "Velcro Gloves"... For real, more power to 'em, good luck, but I don't really get down with their "sound", most of their diehard fans/carbon copys annoy the shit outta me.
Also, who thinks turntablism has kinda gone "nerdy" these days, dudes seem geeked out on some slow ass atmospheric moody type shit, back to basics, but BORING. Someone needs to bring back the "throw on booger breaks and cut sick for 3 minutes" type shit.... "don't give a fuck style"...
Comments
Once I got out of that I started liking actual hip-hop music again/ went back to worshiping at the church of Pete Rock, Premo, & Jay-Dilla.
JEL'S Greenball is still the shit, I was pretty blown away by it.
Tommy 7 has some dope beats as well and is one of the nicest dudes ever. You'd be suprised how "golden era" hip-hop all those Anticon dudes actuall know and enjoyed-I was suprised.
Next cut 'Outlook', and later 'Weed Weed', both focus more on Josh's performance on the mic, by stripping the tracks down to little more than bare drumbeats
My first attempt at beats.
K in Canada.
There's this one track I really liked back in the day. It had Dose, Soul and at least one more of those guys. I was this story of a dude getting shanked in a club and each rapper told it from a different perspective: The victim, the stabber, a bystander. It was a cool concept anyway.
Hi
Was it called "three guys in a bar"?
That was a cool track - I think it was done by Sole, Mr. Complex, & one of the Arsonists.
d-stroy was the other guy
So I'm sittin back laughing thinking I won and he's like "nah, hold up" dude pulls out this CloudDead 10" and puts it on...he won.
i saw sole battle rappin outside some hip-hop show during SXSW one year. he was rapping against some dreadlocked (black) guy. it just looked like a nightmare.
he looked like a fat richie cunningham / grizzly adams beard / skater from the early 90s with big clown pants cut into jams / hippy ponytail action / squatter-punk. i don't care for their music.
is that deep thinking scarf wearing DJ apart of their crew?
he is an affiliate, or at least was.
ahh..Mr Dibbs selling vinyl on ebay
I've never been on the Anticon bandwagon, although I know who Sole and Brandon Best are. However, I love that cLOUDDEAD album, although I prefer the Reaching Giant album myself (which is just cLOUDDEAD minus 1).
I don't know the Anticon family tree, how are cLOUDDEAD/Reaching Giant related to them?
I dunno which song it was, they had like 3 different 10" singles by them and this song SUUUUUUUUUCKED.
which is nosdam and why?
I always fuck up. But yes, Reaching Quiet. Great, great album.
yeah, I picked up this album/ep called "hiphop music for the advanced listener" or something in Rasputins in Berkely probably in 99 or so. I used to pick up that kind of shit, and I thought Buc 65 was the same person as buc50 -- Buc 50 had that alchemist produced gem "Still Breathing" that sampled labbi sifrin.
Anyhoo I heard that Sole answer record "Dear ElP," which I thought was the worst name for a battle record and not a good one at that. A month later I heard that Linda tripp song, and hearing that dude groveling to ElP was pure comedy.
Again, I'm not arguing whether or not anybody should or shouldn't like the music (after all, I'd be lying if I said, I find myself checking for Anticon projects), but I think pedstrian is wholly on-point here with his analysis of why people hate on Anticon, and why it's mostly unfair and uninteresting criticism... and has a great deal to do with authenticity and race (surprise, surprise).
-e
An excellent post.
Markus
For me it boils down to the one thing I judge all music on: the sound. It doesn't sound like anything I would like or be interested in, it sounds like dudes who would've been making bad indie rock records had they started in 1995. To judge their music on its own merits and not on its position in the pantheon of rap music: it sounds like a really bad indie rock-rap fusion - which isn't something I would ever like or listen to
I would say releasing an album that is filed in the "Hip Hop/Rap" section they did sign on...
Hip Hop for "advanced listeners" no less.
yeah man, we are talking about a crew that's first record was called music for the advancement of hip hop. What the fuck are we supposed to expect? And while Dose One himself may have never explicitly stated that he makes rap records, but this is a guy who came up on the battle circut and has mostly surrounded himself with other hip hop artists and promoted a hip hop aesthetic for the early stages of his career. Like it or not, all artists are judged on the expectations set by their prior work.
I think pedestrian (who, while i don't particularly like his music, seems to be one of the more level headed dudes out of the crew) is overstating the racial impact and overlooking the relative narrowminded nature of record buyers as a whole, in that there are very few artists who can comfortably move through genres without criticism or questioning of motives. Is that a good thing? of course not, but it is a reality, and race has a minimal factor in that. Ask Chris Gaines.
That said, as a purveyor of a lot of extremely experimental music, and not exclusively coming at it from a hip hop perspective, I don't find the majority of anticon's catalog to be particularly interesting. a lot of what they do has been done before, and a lot of it falls into the weird for the sake of weirdness catagory. Personally I've never questioned their motives or authenticity (because really, they are pretty much authenically suburn white boy rap nerds and there's nothing wrong with that, as i can personally vouch for), but i have questioned the enjoyability of their music.
And using a pitchfork review as a reflection of the overall critical response in american music journalism is like using white castle for a case study on american cuisine.
you also raise a good point that they are filed in the rap section. and, in my experience as a college radio hip hop dj i can tell you that we were the ones these records were being promoted to, not the rock or the rpm department.
e - am i experiencing deja vu or did we already have this debate here?
Perhaps, cultural differences underlie why I can't feel Anticon, or any of that other suburban rap I've heard. Aesthetically, I don't find most of their music and basically all of their rhymin' appealing. It's not a sound that I can relate to given my background. That's not to disparage White guys that rap because I think Eminem, for example, is a truly gifted and exceptional MC (though I can really feel his music). I've been a Beastie Boys fan from day one because they have energy, wit, and incredible production (and Adrock has always had crazy flavor to me). The same can be said of 3rd Bass and Everlast. In general, my issues with suburban rap is it lacks flavor (or charisma) and isn't funky. I simply find it dull and uninteresting.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
LOL!
Well said Stacks. I agree that "Suburban" rap lacks flavor. I also agree that the production is not appealing.
In response to the "Music for the Advancement of Hip Hop" gripes, I've got to say that, as I understand it, that banner really falls on the head of one member of Anticon and one member only: Sole. I was interested in Anticon-affiliated artists and the new scene that seemed to be developing around '97 or so, and I interviewed two affiliated artist separately around the time that the first EP was about to be released. Already at that point, artists who would be appearing on the EP were distancing themselves from the whole "advancement of hip-hop" thing and Anticon in general. A lot of these guys who have been branded "Anticon" for life are, from what I understand, not even friendly with Sole anymore. Some of them were guest artist who were even affiliated with Anticon to begin with!
http://www.stigma.org/
Also, who thinks turntablism has kinda gone "nerdy" these days, dudes seem geeked out on some slow ass atmospheric moody type shit, back to basics, but BORING. Someone needs to bring back the "throw on booger breaks and cut sick for 3 minutes" type shit.... "don't give a fuck style"...
peace.